Tutorials on Frame and Panel (with Mouldings) by Hand?

[Jacob]

there are standards of best practice

But what is "standard good practice" and how do you find out about it?

BugBear

Quoting from the Grimsdale archive again BB! Well done keep up the good work. If you read further you will see that I gave a tentative answer to this question.

 

[J_SAMa]

Speaking of Hartlepool, you do come across a number of variations within the North East and Borders area (Doubtless nationwide on properties of a certain age) with timber sash surmounting stone/concrete cills (Sill for timber, Cill for stone) with built-in weathering sealed via leadwork or bitumen. Such weathering detail would also often be present at each stone jamb/reveal - wherever timber met stone. I've seen it most often on pre-Edwardian structures - English Heritage projects and estate cottages - and seldom on anything built after 1914. It was a method adapted from wrought iron windows normally fitted within stone jambs, heads and cills and often involved the use of a leadwork or pitch seal as a belts and braces dampness barrier.

Loooong time no see Gary!

Let't not forget I started this for a clock build (yeah that's right a clock that won't be submerged in water or exposed to rain). Maybe someone can start another thread for all that window stuff?
So for now, I've decided to just use tapered tongues. The humidity here stays relatively constant throughout the year. And if I were to do a flat-tongued one I'd need to buy a plough plane.

Sam

 

[Jelly]

there are standards of best practice

But what is "standard good practice" and how do you find out about it?

BugBear

In this case BS 644:2008 Timber Windows would be a good starter for ten... there are at least half a dozen BS and EN standards that would be relevant.

 

[GazPal]

Speaking of Hartlepool, you do come across a number of variations within the North East and Borders area (Doubtless nationwide on properties of a certain age) with timber sash surmounting stone/concrete cills (Sill for timber, Cill for stone) with built-in weathering sealed via leadwork or bitumen. Such weathering detail would also often be present at each stone jamb/reveal - wherever timber met stone. I've seen it most often on pre-Edwardian structures - English Heritage projects and estate cottages - and seldom on anything built after 1914. It was a method adapted from wrought iron windows normally fitted within stone jambs, heads and cills and often involved the use of a leadwork or pitch seal as a belts and braces dampness barrier.

Loooong time no see Gary!

Let't not forget I started this for a clock build (yeah that's right a clock that won't be submerged in water or exposed to rain). Maybe someone can start another thread for all that window stuff?
So for now, I've decided to just use tapered tongues. The humidity here stays relatively constant throughout the year. And if I were to do a flat-tongued one I'd need to buy a plough plane.

Sam

It's been a while Sam and simply due to a few health issues, but I'm on the mend at long last.

If you follow the guidelines everyone has given you should be capable of sending your X Craft clock casement to sink the Tirpitz at Kåfjord. :wink:

Would this clock build be one similar to coursework on Paul's site? If so, I'd opt for housing joints or sliding dovetails with that style of work while concentrating on more basic skill building and - if more decorative work is desired - keeping your eyes peeled for a small selection of inexpensive moulding planes for your arsenal of tools. Keep nosings/angled projections clear of your rectangular jointing work and all should be fine. :wink:

You'll soon have a wider selection of planes to choose from.

 

[G S Haydon]

........
...... slightly shonkier methods of joinery are less likely to fail............. require the joinery to be done to best practice, .........

Always makes me laugh how furniture makers seem to take this attitude as though they are doing something special and more demanding. Pure ignorance really - anybody attempting architectural trad joinery can tell you that it is technically demanding , there are standards of best practice and making furniture is a doddle in comparison. We know this well having done both.
External joinery is the most demanding due to the very different environments on opposite sides. Many common items of joinery (sash window primarily) are far more complicated than furniture, with many more components and a much more demanding performance spec.

PS Imagine St Jim Krenov (or many of his acolytes) trying to make a sash window. They wouldn't know where to begin whereas any fool can have a crack at one of his funny little cupboards (and many do :lol: ).

This has got bait written all over it .

I guess we found this a doddle, all the fine astragal glazing bars and book matched veneers were easy peasy (hammer)

However this bread and butter sliding sash was a real challenge :lol:

 

[Jelly]

........
...... slightly shonkier methods of joinery are less likely to fail............. require the joinery to be done to best practice, .........

Always makes me laugh how furniture makers seem to take this attitude as though they are doing something special and more demanding. Pure ignorance really - anybody attempting architectural trad joinery can tell you that it is technically demanding , there are standards of best practice and making furniture is a doddle in comparison. We know this well having done both.
External joinery is the most demanding due to the very different environments on opposite sides. Many common items of joinery (sash window primarily) are far more complicated than furniture, with many more components and a much more demanding performance spec.

PS Imagine St Jim Krenov (or many of his acolytes) trying to make a sash window. They wouldn't know where to begin whereas any fool can have a crack at one of his funny little cupboards (and many do :lol: ).

This has got bait written all over it .

I guess we found this a doddle, all the fine astragal glazing bars and book matched veneers were easy peasy (hammer)



However this bread and butter sliding sash was a real challenge :lol:

Thing is, you've picked a very demanding furniture project (in fact it's more like high-class internal joinery than just "furniture"), and a normal window so it's an apples to eggs comparison...

The branch of work is not directly related to skill or difficulty, You can get horrendously complex windows and other exterior joinery (which have a habit of also being very large adding a further layer of difficulty) and you can get lots of simple cabinet-work; it is supremely arrogant to declare someone else to be using "shoddy" methods, based on anything other than their individual standard of work.

Certainly not based on what field they're in (apart from maybe someone who specialised solely in shuttering carpentry; but even then they would still be doing highly accurate work, in spite of a certain 'pragmatism' with the methods of construction)... I do however think that a lot (though definitely not all) of the specialist cabinet-makers* we hear from frequently in the woodworking press are out of touch with the true scope and nature of woodworking and this dominates the information which makes it through to hobbyists.

*Who have by-and large also absorbed the trades of carvers, marqueters and polishers, as there's insufficient demand and profit margin to sub-contract such work these days.

 

[G S Haydon]

Jelly,

You are spot on. I could not help but take the bait and have some fun with it. I thought Jacobs comments were unhelpful and wanted to do a light heared comeback. I did indeed skew my response for fun.
I have never thought to put down someones skills whatever their field. Some shuttering jobs I have seen employ some incredible skill and knowledge. Ditto every branch of woodworking.

 

[Jacob]

........
...... slightly shonkier methods of joinery are less likely to fail............. require the joinery to be done to best practice, .........

Always makes me laugh how furniture makers seem to take this attitude as though they are doing something special and more demanding. Pure ignorance really - anybody attempting architectural trad joinery can tell you that it is technically demanding , there are standards of best practice and making furniture is a doddle in comparison. We know this well having done both.
External joinery is the most demanding due to the very different environments on opposite sides. Many common items of joinery (sash window primarily) are far more complicated than furniture, with many more components and a much more demanding performance spec.

PS Imagine St Jim Krenov (or many of his acolytes) trying to make a sash window. They wouldn't know where to begin whereas any fool can have a crack at one of his funny little cupboards (and many do :lol: ).

This has got bait written all over it .

I guess we found this a doddle, all the fine astragal glazing bars and book matched veneers were easy peasy (hammer)

I call that high class joinery. I was thinking more of the semi mystical arts n crafts types who worship St Jim amongst others.

However this bread and butter sliding sash was a real challenge :lol:

TBH I'm not too impressed by the sash. It has great thick meeting rails which suggest immediately that it is not a copy but rather a modern bodge and probably double glazed. Spring balances too? I always refused to do that sort of stuff. :lol:

 

[G S Haydon]

Thanks Jacob,

My aim was not to impress you, rather to have some fun with your harsh comments. Window was to an architects design, single glazed on weights and pulleys. Designed to reflect other windows made in the 1920's or 30's on the estate in question. To of changed the design would of meant we didn't get paid and it would of clashed with other examples adjacent. I suppose I could of refused the job and lost a valued client, although now as then that seemed a rather un-wise idea.
Book match veneers joinery? Not often although granted it is more of a Joinery project.

 

[Jacob]

.... Window was to an architects design, ....

Say no more, that explains it!

 

[G S Haydon]

I know where you are coming from on that one. But to be fair on this occasion they simply copied existing windows. Had a look at your website last night. Is it something your going to refine with updates about the chapel?

 

[bugbear]

But to be fair on this occasion they simply copied existing windows.

Some people strongly recommend this.


BugBear

 

[Doug B]

But to be fair on this occasion they simply copied existing windows.

Some people strongly recommend this.


BugBear

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I've heard that to :shock:

 

[Jacob]

I know where you are coming from on that one. But to be fair on this occasion they simply copied existing windows. Had a look at your website last night. Is it something your going to refine with updates about the chapel?

It's all very out of date. Keep meaning to do an update. Chapel coming along nicely. Could be in by Christmas. Staircase at the moment

 

[Jacob]

But to be fair on this occasion they simply copied existing windows.

Some people strongly recommend this.


BugBear

But don't ask an architect to do it he'll get it all wrong; imposing his own idea of how it should be done as he probably has here.
The fat meeting rail is a giveaway.

 

[G S Haydon]

Could be in by Christmas. t

One of the most overused phrases in construction :lol:

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Could be in by Christmas. t

One of the most overused phrases in construction :lol:

They never specify which Christmas, though, do they!

 

[Jelly]

Jelly,

You are spot on. I could not help but take the bait and have some fun with it. I thought Jacobs comments were unhelpful and wanted to do a light heared comeback. I did indeed skew my response for fun.
I have never thought to put down someones skills whatever their field. Some shuttering jobs I have seen employ some incredible skill and knowledge. Ditto every branch of woodworking.

Most of that post was aimed at Woodbrain's comment, not yours (you tend to be relatively measured, and are also a joiner yourself).

I've seen some extremely complicated shuttering work, lots of intersecting curved surfaces; and it invariably looks all a bit ramshackle on the outside, but once its dissassembled, the quality of the workmanship involved in building the formwork is evident immediately.

 

[G S Haydon]

For the record I think complex shuttering and first fix carpentry is under valued.

 

[Jacob]

....
I've seen some extremely complicated shuttering work, lots of intersecting curved surfaces; and it invariably looks all a bit ramshackle on the outside, but once its dissassembled, the quality of the workmanship involved in building the formwork is evident immediately.

Similarly with some humble staircases of my aquaintance - they look a mess from underneath, especially winders, with bits of rough hewn timber nailed in all directions, no strings just bearers and rough brackets, but very tidy on the outside. Intelligently made and ruthlessly practical - as you discover if you have to repair or copy one.