Tutorials on Frame and Panel (with Mouldings) by Hand?

[Jelly]

This is all very interesting but Sam, are you any better informed?

Have you managed to watch the Roy Underhill video?

And weren't you also asking about the panels? There are some subtleties there to explore - the many different ways of getting a thick centre and a thin edge; how to size panels to fit the frame; how to glue and assemble. I'm not at a PC just now to check but there is probably good free detail in Cassell's Carpentry and Joinery ed Hasluck and in Ellis - both available for download.

Honestly Roy Underhill's video only discouraged me... I think he overcomplicated it by using so many different tools I don't have... And in the end, he made it with an American panel-raising plane.
Paul Seller's method is better for me (as always). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAezwdKjN2Y. He doesn't show how to get the flat edges though... The slopes are fine for box lids I guess but not for fitting in a frame though. Do you get that flat edge with a rabbet/badger plane? If so is it used before or after the slopes are created?

Also I still need to find a gouge with the bevel on the inside of the curve. Or maybe I'll stick to mitring.
Sam

You don't actually need a flat bit at the edge, Just use an angle of near to 90 degrees for the slope and you'll be able to fit it into a suitably sized groove... defining a flat tongue to fit the grove in the panel becomes useful when you start adding beading or mouldings to the panel (I have somewhere a door with the field raised by a grecian-ogee moulding then a bead, and finally the tongue which goes into the frame, wonderful, but perhaps a bit showy).

 

[Jacob]

This is all very interesting but Sam, are you any better informed?

Have you managed to watch the Roy Underhill video?

And weren't you also asking about the panels? There are some subtleties there to explore - the many different ways of getting a thick centre and a thin edge; how to size panels to fit the frame; how to glue and assemble. I'm not at a PC just now to check but there is probably good free detail in Cassell's Carpentry and Joinery ed Hasluck and in Ellis - both available for download.

Honestly Roy Underhill's video only discouraged me... I think he overcomplicated it by using so many different tools I don't have... And in the end, he made it with an American panel-raising plane.
Paul Seller's method is better for me (as always). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAezwdKjN2Y. He doesn't show how to get the flat edges though... The slopes are fine for box lids I guess but not for fitting in a frame though. Do you get that flat edge with a rabbet/badger plane? If so is it used before or after the slopes are created?

Also I still need to find a gouge with the bevel on the inside of the curve. Or maybe I'll stick to mitring.
Sam

You don't actually need a flat bit at the edge, Just use an angle of near to 90 degrees for the slope and you'll be able to fit it into a suitably sized groove... defining a flat tongue to fit the grove in the panel becomes useful when you start adding beading or mouldings to the panel (I have somewhere a door with the field raised by a grecian-ogee moulding then a bead, and finally the tongue which goes into the frame, wonderful, but perhaps a bit showy).

Not sure what you mean by 90º for the slope.
The vast majority of raised and fielded panels are simply tapered with no flat tongue, and are fitted flat side out on the good side, so you don't see the raised side at all if it's fixed panelling, or you see it on the back of a door. So you need only a marking gauge and a single plane - no5 typically. Panel mouldings then fit the flat side no probs.
To "sink" the field or the tongue the next plane you need is a 78 or a shoulder plane. After that you can use all 3 of them to further flatten the margin (wossit called) between the tongue and the field.

 

[Jelly]

Honestly Roy Underhill's video only discouraged me... I think he overcomplicated it by using so many different tools I don't have... And in the end, he made it with an American panel-raising plane.
Paul Seller's method is better for me (as always). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAezwdKjN2Y. He doesn't show how to get the flat edges though... The slopes are fine for box lids I guess but not for fitting in a frame though. Do you get that flat edge with a rabbet/badger plane? If so is it used before or after the slopes are created?

Also I still need to find a gouge with the bevel on the inside of the curve. Or maybe I'll stick to mitring.
Sam

You don't actually need a flat bit at the edge, Just use an angle of near to 90 degrees for the slope and you'll be able to fit it into a suitably sized groove... defining a flat tongue to fit the grove in the panel becomes useful when you start adding beading or mouldings to the panel (I have somewhere a door with the field raised by a grecian-ogee moulding then a bead, and finally the tongue which goes into the frame, wonderful, but perhaps a bit showy).

Not sure what you mean by 90º for the slope.
The vast majority of raised and fielded panels are simply tapered with no flat tongue, and are fitted flat side out on the good side, so you don't see the raised side at all if it's fixed panelling, or you see it on the back of a door. So you need only a marking gauge and a single plane - no5 typically. Panel mouldings then fit the flat side no probs.
To "sink" the field or the tongue the next plane you need is a 78 or a shoulder plane. After that you can use all 3 of them to further flatten the margin (wossit called) between the tongue and the field.

"Near 90" refers to the slope of the tongue (relative to the plane* defining the field), whilst any angle will work (and some will be more pleasing to the eye than others) I'be find that having the tongue with a relatively slight taper makes for a more secure fit.

*Geometric

 

[J_SAMa]

This is all very interesting but Sam, are you any better informed?

Have you managed to watch the Roy Underhill video?

And weren't you also asking about the panels? There are some subtleties there to explore - the many different ways of getting a thick centre and a thin edge; how to size panels to fit the frame; how to glue and assemble. I'm not at a PC just now to check but there is probably good free detail in Cassell's Carpentry and Joinery ed Hasluck and in Ellis - both available for download.

Honestly Roy Underhill's video only discouraged me... I think he overcomplicated it by using so many different tools I don't have... And in the end, he made it with an American panel-raising plane.
Paul Seller's method is better for me (as always). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAezwdKjN2Y. He doesn't show how to get the flat edges though... The slopes are fine for box lids I guess but not for fitting in a frame though. Do you get that flat edge with a rabbet/badger plane? If so is it used before or after the slopes are created?

Also I still need to find a gouge with the bevel on the inside of the curve. Or maybe I'll stick to mitring.
Sam

You don't actually need a flat bit at the edge, Just use an angle of near to 90 degrees for the slope and you'll be able to fit it into a suitably sized groove... defining a flat tongue to fit the grove in the panel becomes useful when you start adding beading or mouldings to the panel (I have somewhere a door with the field raised by a grecian-ogee moulding then a bead, and finally the tongue which goes into the frame, wonderful, but perhaps a bit showy).

Does having a flat "tongue" give you an advantage?

 

[Jacob]

Hmm right still not sure!
I have done a few in the past - one job to copy a large area of fire damaged Georgian softwood panelling and doors. The basic panel starts off as a 1/2" to 3/4" board (say). The field margin is gauged in at say 2", the thickness at the edge is gauged in at say 3/16" and the board between them is flattened to join up the lines. No tongue. Dead simple. Easily done by hand but in fact on that big job I did them over the top of a TS (some subtle jigging/fencing required here) and finished off by hand.
This'd still be the starting point for a more elaborate panel.

Does having a flat "tongue" give you an advantage?

Probably but it's a lot of effort by hand and they seem to work quite well without.

 

[Jelly]

Hmm right still not sure!

If that's in reference to my post then, then I must applogise for a post that's about as clear as mud (but makes total sense in my head).
I'll try to draw what I mean and post it, not sure if I'll have a chance tonight.

 

[bugbear]

Honestly Roy Underhill's video only discouraged me... I think he overcomplicated it by using so many different tools I don't have... And in the end, he made it with an American panel-raising plane.

I think you've misunderstood. Roy showed you around 7 or 8 different ways to do the job, depending on the tools you have or prefer.

BugBear

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

A flat tongue does give an advantage, if by flat tongue you mean the bit that fits the groove is a parallel plane to the face of the panel. A tapered tongue does not do so well with seasonal movement. During dry seasons the panel will rattle, when once it was a snug fit as the panel shrinks the tongue now presents a thinner profile In the groove. Worse, in moister seasons, the panel will expand and drive the wedge shaped tongue further into the groove and possibly split the face. It was not perceived as a problem in olden times, when this sort of method was used more often, but they did not have to contend with central heating and draft proofed homes as we do now. The extremes in humidity shifts is much more extreme nowadays, and I would always make the tongue flat. However, providing there is enough room allowed for expansion, the rest of the tongue up to the field can do whatever it likes.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

...During dry seasons the panel will rattle, when once it was a snug fit as the panel shrinks the tongue now presents a thinner profile In the groove. Worse, in moister seasons, the panel will expand and drive the wedge shaped tongue further into the groove and possibly split the face. .....

The odd thing is that neither of these things happen at all often.

 

[AndyT]

Here's another approach to making the panels, using a plough plane to define the thin edge and the limits of the centre part of the panel. The description is on the second page, referring to the picture on the first.

(From Cassell's Joinery ed Hasluck - 1907 - http://openlibrary.org/books/OL24760370M/Cassells'_carpentry_and_joinery)

 

[G S Haydon]

[/quote]The first point of structural failure of virtually every failed window I've looked at (a lot of windows!) is the bottom rail to stile joint. This is the most important joint in terms of weathering.

.........

So interesting to compare notes on this. I have yet to find (that I can remember) a window that rotted from water ingress on an internal scribe joint. I will be keeping my eyes peeled!

 

[woodbrains]

...During dry seasons the panel will rattle, when once it was a snug fit as the panel shrinks the tongue now presents a thinner profile In the groove. Worse, in moister seasons, the panel will expand and drive the wedge shaped tongue further into the groove and possibly split the face. .....

The odd thing is that neither of these things happen at all often.

Hello.

The odd thing is, I have witnessed a 12 inch wide board change dimension by 3/8 inch in one week. If you want to play a lottery with seasonal movement then feel free, but it is a simple matter to make the tongue flat rather than tapered during the making, and exclude the problem completely. It is surprising how many antiques have split panels or ones that rattle, or forced open joinery due to seasonal movement that just wasn't anticipated by old time makers, as the problem simply wasn't as extreme in those days. Also, painted timber has a better vapour barrier and suffers seasonal movement less than that finished in any other way ( about twice as good as the best varnish and many times better than other finishes) Don't assume that joinery standards will suffice for cabinetmaking.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

The first point of structural failure of virtually every failed window I've looked at (a lot of windows!) is the bottom rail to stile joint. This is the most important joint in terms of weathering.

.........

So interesting to compare notes on this. I have yet to find (that I can remember) a window that rotted from water ingress on an internal scribe joint. I will be keeping my eyes peeled!

You can't be sure that the scribe itself is the fault but nevertheless that bottom corner joint is more often than not the one that fails so any extra degree of weathering which avoids a water trap can't be bad. I've just always taken this for granted and assumed everybody else did too.
The Victorians and Georgians were masters at weathering from top to bottom of buildings - at least on the ones that lived to tell the tale! The sash window being a prime example.

 

[Jacob]

...During dry seasons the panel will rattle, when once it was a snug fit as the panel shrinks the tongue now presents a thinner profile In the groove. Worse, in moister seasons, the panel will expand and drive the wedge shaped tongue further into the groove and possibly split the face. .....

The odd thing is that neither of these things happen at all often.

Hello.

The odd thing is, I have witnessed a 12 inch wide board change dimension by 3/8 inch in one week. If you want to play a lottery with seasonal movement then feel free, but it is a simple matter to make the tongue flat rather than tapered during the making, and exclude the problem completely.

Tongue or taper would make no difference to the amount of shrinkage, given the same width to start with.

It is surprising how many antiques have split panels or ones that rattle, or forced open joinery due to seasonal movement that just wasn't anticipated by old time makers, as the problem simply wasn't as extreme in those days.

A taper rather than a tongue is more likely to pull out of the slot and avoid split, and is probably stronger. Most splits are due to paint/polish build up - sticking the panel into the slot, whether tongued or tapered.

Also, painted timber has a better vapour barrier and suffers seasonal movement less than that finished in any other way ( about twice as good as the best varnish and many times better than other finishes) Don't assume that joinery standards will suffice for cabinetmaking.

Mike.

True - painted stuff is more stable but what difference does that make to the choice of taper or tongue? Non at all that I can see.
NB I always associate the tongue with machine moulding as it is not easy by hand and anyway is fairly pointless - if the thing is carefully dimensioned to start with. This only applies to thin stuff of course; when you start looking at the elaborately moulded panels on front doors things are different.

PS I admit to being fascinated by the short cuts practiced by the old woodworkers. You see this more on the "ordinary" class of work - posh stuff often being overworked with unnecessary detailing cranking up the price.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

A panel will move seasonally whether it's tongue is flat or tapered, by the same amount per unit width, this is true. But a flat tongue will move in and out of its groove freely, whereas a taper will lose contact with the groove walls in dry spells, and rattle, and try to force a wider section of tongue into the groove during high humidity. The extra thickness has to go somewhere, so the walls of the groove bulge a bit. If not split there. There is also a force against the Morticer and tenon joints, which can start them to open up at the shoulders.

Paint has everything to do with the type of joinery selected for a job. Something that helps reduce the effects of seasonal movement, means that slightly shonkier methods of joinery are less likely to fail. Finishes that provide less of a vapour barrier, or no finish at all, require the joinery to be done to best practice, to make the work season proof. There is no place to hide making furniture, take a short cut too far and it will bite you.

Mike.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Hello,

A panel will move seasonally whether it's tongue is flat or tapered, by the same amount per unit width, this is true. But a flat tongue will move in and out of its groove freely, whereas a taper will lose contact with the groove walls in dry spells, and rattle, and try to force a wider section of tongue into the groove during high humidity. The extra thickness has to go somewhere, so the walls of the groove bulge a bit. If not split there. There is also a force against the Morticer and tenon joints, which can start them to open up at the shoulders.

Paint has everything to do with the type of joinery selected for a job. Something that helps reduce the effects of seasonal movement, means that slightly shonkier methods of joinery are less likely to fail. Finishes that provide less of a vapour barrier, or no finish at all, require the joinery to be done to best practice, to make the work season proof. There is no place to hide making furniture, take a short cut too far and it will bite you.

Mike.

I fully agree with your comments Mike

 

[G S Haydon]

Thought you might like this one Jacob http://www.jonathan-rhind.co.uk/content ... own%20Hall . We were subcontracted to repair the windows which to the best knowledge are 1685. They were removed from Stowe House in North Cornwall and put into the much later structure which is the Town Hall. We found that the main reason for rot and failure in general was lack of maintenance, orientation to the sun with the UV light breaking down surfaces. The sashes that did need repairing/replacing were rotted on the end grain of the stile which is in contact with the cill and therefore water. Meeting rails of the top sashes also failed where water had gotten in behind the face putty and rotted the external faces of the meeting rail away. On this occasion the scribes all seemed fine and were all made on the tenon shoulders. It was a real pleasure to of worked on some very early sliding sashes. Not often I get to work on joinery of such providence!

 

[woodbrains]

Thought you might like this one Jacob http://www.jonathan-rhind.co.uk/content ... own%20Hall . We were subcontracted to repair the windows which to the best knowledge are 1685. They were removed from Stowe House in North Cornwall and put into the much later structure which is the Town Hall. We found that the main reason for rot and failure in general was lack of maintenance, orientation to the sun with the UV light breaking down surfaces. The sashes that did need repairing/replacing were rotted on the end grain of the stile which is in contact with the cill and therefore water. Meeting rails of the top sashes also failed where water had gotten in behind the face putty and rotted the external faces of the meeting rail away. On this occasion the scribes all seemed fine and were all made on the tenon shoulders. It was a real pleasure to of worked on some very early sliding sashes. Not often I get to work on joinery of such providence!

Hello,

That sounds like a nice job to do, hope you enjoyed the work.

Mike

 

[richarnold]

I scoured the workshop today for old examples of scribed joinery. unfortunately this is the only one I could find (note to ones self, save more old examples instead of skipping everything!!). This dates to about 1830 and clearly shows the rails have been scribed over the stiles Just like every other door and window I have ever seen. If the stile or jamb of a window were to be scribed, any shrinkage in the width of the rail would result in an ugly gap between the scribe and the mould. I fail to see how 300 years worth of joiners can have got it so wrong all this time!. On another note, why have all the tennoners that have been made over the years been fitted with scribing heads?, and why were sash moulding planes often sold with scribing templates to form the scribe on the rail?

 

[G S Haydon]

Hello Mike,

I did. Nice to do it on a centre piece of my home town where our business has been since 1926 :wink:

Richard,

+1, I have only ever seen this type of scribe on joinery (so far). It obviously works well for Jacob and he has even uncovered some/many old examples of the joint. The evidence I have seen thus far says the weathering aspect of an internal scribe is not/ was not a concern for the majority. Whichever way the cat is skinned I'm sure the joint looks good, I'm just one of the 8 out of 10 cats who prefers to be skinned with my scribe on the tenon shoulder