Titanic

[AES]

I especially agree with Blackswanwood on this point (post 97).

AFAIK, I have no family or friends connection to WWII in the Far East, but when living in Singapore I did deliberately visit the Changi Prison Museum/Memorial, and as a frequent (business) visitor to Thailand I also once visited a Commonwealth War Graves Commision grave site there. For me the reason for visiting is easily summed up in the words "Lest we forget". A salutory experience indeed (it was for me anyway), and definitely NOT "rubber-necking".

Also entirely agree about turning such sites into "Theme Parks" or otherwise trying to make money out of them.

 

[Bingy man]

I agree with the sentiment of what you say but the reason the holocaust death camps and the killing fields are maintained is so that visitors reflect on how these things were allowed to happen. As such I think they serve a purpose and even those without a direct connection should visit. Obviously visiting to learn and understand is different to treating it as a theme park.

Yes exactly- I’ve no problem with education and wanting to reflect on the inhumane loss of life but yes it’s the as you say “ theme park attitude “ a day out at the zoo looking at the animals and generally treating it as entertainment. I suspect there is little to learn from disturbing the dead that perished on the titanic- as they say “ may they rest in peace “ god bless them all ..

 

[JimJay]

I agree with the sentiment of what you say but the reason the holocaust death camps and the killing fields are maintained is so that visitors reflect on how these things were allowed to happen. As such I think they serve a purpose and even those without a direct connection should visit. Obviously visiting to learn and understand is different to treating it as a theme park.

And the reason there are no memorials reminding us of the atrocities carried out by the Red Army in Germany after the war, or the mass murders committed by the Communists all over Eastern Europe throughout most of the 20th Century, which far outnumbered the dead of the Holocaust, is because....?

 

[JimJay]

Yes exactly- I’ve no problem with education and wanting to reflect on the inhumane loss of life but yes it’s the as you say “ theme park attitude “ a day out at the zoo looking at the animals and generally treating it as entertainment. I suspect there is little to learn from disturbing the dead that perished on the titanic- as they say “ may they rest in peace “ god bless them all ..

They've been dead for over 100 years - I rather doubt that anyone or anything is going to "disturb" what's left of them. How long should we wait until they're just historical evidence, like "Ötzi"?

 

[Jacob]

And the reason there are no memorials reminding us of the atrocities carried out by the Red Army in Germany after the war, or the mass murders committed by the Communists all over Eastern Europe throughout most of the 20th Century, which far outnumbered the dead of the Holocaust, is because....?

Dunno. You tell us!

 

[Blackswanwood]

And the reason there are no memorials reminding us of the atrocities carried out by the Red Army in Germany after the war, or the mass murders committed by the Communists all over Eastern Europe throughout most of the 20th Century, which far outnumbered the dead of the Holocaust, is because....?

Sorry I don’t get your point.

 

[mwinfrance]

Sorry I don’t get your point.

I think it was just "whataboutery".

 

[JimJay]

Sorry I don’t get your point.

Sorry, I assumed that it was a pretty simple point: why do you think that there are particular venues where "visitors reflect on how these things were allowed to happen" when it comes to atrocities which were carried out by the Nazis, but there are no corresponding ones for the much more prolonged and considerably more bloody ones perpetrated by the Soviets, and other Communist regimes around the world? Could it be because WE have to shoulder a lot of the blame for the way we turned a blind eye to the fact that our Russian "Allies" murdered so many more people than Hitler could even dream of doing?

 

[Blackswanwood]

Sorry, I assumed that it was a pretty simple point: why do you think that there are particular venues where "visitors reflect on how these things were allowed to happen" when it comes to atrocities which were carried out by the Nazis, but there are no corresponding ones for the much more prolonged and considerably more bloody ones perpetrated by the Soviets, and other Communist regimes around the world? Could it be because WE have to shoulder a lot of the blame for the way we turned a blind eye to the fact that our Russian "Allies" murdered so many more people than Hitler could even dream of doing?

Perhaps because it’s an imperfect world.

I haven’t travelled extensively in Eastern Europe but Berlin certainly has memorials and maintained sites relating to those who died in the period between the end of WW II and unification.

Regardless, it doesn’t lessen the relevance of those reminders that are maintained if not every act of inhumanity has an equivalent.

Let’s not get into a game of who can come up with the worst offender or atrocity - as I said in my opening comment it’s a imperfect world.

 

[mwinfrance]

Sorry, I assumed that it was a pretty simple point: why do you think that there are particular venues where "visitors reflect on how these things were allowed to happen" when it comes to atrocities which were carried out by the Nazis, but there are no corresponding ones for the much more prolonged and considerably more bloody ones perpetrated by the Soviets, and other Communist regimes around the world? Could it be because WE have to shoulder a lot of the blame for the way we turned a blind eye to the fact that our Russian "Allies" murdered so many more people than Hitler could even dream of doing?

Who is "We" Kee-Mo Sah-Bee ?
I was not there , not yet born, took no part in that decision, turned no "blind eye", and am thus in no way responsible for it.

 

[Jacob]

Sorry, I assumed that it was a pretty simple point: why do you think that there are particular venues where "visitors reflect on how these things were allowed to happen" when it comes to atrocities which were carried out by the Nazis, but there are no corresponding ones for the much more prolonged and considerably more bloody ones perpetrated by the Soviets, and other Communist regimes around the world? Could it be because WE have to shoulder a lot of the blame for the way we turned a blind eye to the fact that our Russian "Allies" murdered so many more people than Hitler could even dream of doing?

What about Mao Tse Tung? Why have you left him out? Are you a crypto-Maoist by any chance?

PS the answer to your question of course is that these other places were largely behind the iron curtain and inaccessible, but also the powers that be were still in place and not defeated as the nazis were.
Add to that the ambiguity of the communist holocausts - much to do with crazy management leading to mass starvation, not quite the intense focus of the nazis on ethnic cleansing and the Jews as cause of all their ills, though there were of course systematic mass murders by the communists too. Khmer Rouge did for 2 million relatively recently - some their sites are on the tourist trail I believe.
The nazis also had had support from the UK establishment including the royal family and the mass media especially the Daily Mail, so emphatic efforts were made after the war to repudiate their part in this.

 

[JimJay]

What about Mao Tse Tung? Why have you left him out? Are you a crypto-Maoist by any chance?

PS the answer to your question of course is that these other places were largely behind the iron curtain and inaccessible, but also the powers that be were still in place and not defeated as the nazis were.
Add to that the ambiguity of the communist holocausts - much to do with crazy management leading to mass starvation, not quite the intense focus of the nazis on ethnic cleansing and the Jews as cause of all their ills, though there were of course systematic mass murders by the communists too. Khmer Rouge did for 2 million relatively recently - some their sites are on the tourist trail I believe.
The nazis also had had support from the UK establishment including the royal family and the mass media especially the Daily Mail, so emphatic efforts were made after the war to repudiate their part in this.

Sorry to "disappoint" you but I'm neither Maoist nor Crypto-Anything. Mao was lumped in with the "other Communist regimes around the world". The reason for that is simply that I was stressing the fact that the Russians were our "allies" for the greater part of WW2, despite us being well aware of what had been going on there since 1917 but choosing to close our eyes to it. It seems that some atrocities are more atrocious than others when it suits Perfidious Albion and Uncle Sam...

 

[JimJay]

Who is "We" Kee-Mo Sah-Bee ?
I was not there , not yet born, took no part in that decision, turned no "blind eye", and am thus in no way responsible for it.

It's called "a figure of speech" - perhaps you were playing truant the day that teecher mentioned it?

 

[Jacob]

Sorry to "disappoint" you but I'm neither Maoist nor Crypto-Anything. Mao was lumped in with the "other Communist regimes around the world". The reason for that is simply that I was stressing the fact that the Russians were our "allies" for the greater part of WW2, despite us being well aware of what had been going on there since 1917 but choosing to close our eyes to it. It seems that some atrocities are more atrocious than others when it suits Perfidious Albion and Uncle Sam...

True.
People are still in denial about the British slave trade and other aspects of our atrocious colonial history.
Just one example The Colston Statue: Conserving history as it happens and the missed opportunity to leave a brilliant and very fitting memento in place of a slave trader. 'Hope flows through her': artist Marc Quinn on replacing Colston with a Black Lives Matter statue
The Russians have memorials to their own dead, just as we do. Treptower Park is stunning and well worth a visit.
PS not many monuments to our own national shame - compare and contrast
Gloomy Memories Memorial, Rasal, Strathnaver
with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_B...oot-tall (,played in the Highland clearances.Very Russian!

 

[thetyreman]

mods, close this down now? it's ultra political and stupid, nothing at all to do with the original topic, we've managed to mention the holocaust, communism, death camps, immigration, racism, slavery........... you know who is doing it yet nothing gets done, I don't envy any of you which is why I didn't want to be a mod myself lol

 

[Jacob]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ives-as-millions-spent-on-titan-rescue-effort

 

[RobinBHM]

there are reports that the implosion could create temperatures as high as the sun.

apparently compression causes temperature increase

 

[JimJay]

mods, close this down now? it's ultra political and stupid, nothing at all to do with the original topic, we've managed to mention the holocaust, communism, death camps, immigration, racism, slavery........... you know who is doing it yet nothing gets done, I don't envy any of you which is why I didn't want to be a mod myself lol

Yeah, it's "off-topic" - and in the Off-topic Section, of all places. Who on earth would be "stupid" enough to think that such a thing could happen?

You no like, you no read - simples...

 

[thetyreman]

Yeah, it's "off-topic" - and in the Off-topic Section, of all places. Who on earth would be "stupid" enough to think that such a thing could happen?

You no like, you no read - simples...

how about you stick to the forum rules? it's not hard, if it's in the off topic section doesn't mean you can get away with bringing politics into this discussion about SUBMARINES, stick to the fking subject alright?

 

[JimJay]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ives-as-millions-spent-on-titan-rescue-effort

Understandable reaction: they were hoping that taxpayers' money would be spent on them; you can thank the NGOs, left-wing lawyers - and armchair socialists guzzling pork pies and swilling Bass - for that..
It's a topsy-turvy world when folks who break the law and encourage organised crime gangs expect to be "rescued" from the results of their own folly by the very people whose job it is to defend the borders they're trying to clandestinely breach. International maritime law is being subverted by people that it was never designed to protect in the first place..