Time for a change?

[petermillard]

I do think it must be tough specialising in built in furniture because as you say these days anyone with a bit of skill and a track saw can just rock up with a few sheets of MDF and create some impressive results.

Not sure it’s any tougher than specialising in freestanding furniture and having to compete against the likes of Oak furniture land Doug - part of the job has always been convincing people to buy what you’re selling, at a price they’re prepared to pay that‘s also worthwhile and profitable to you. Never been easy, right?

I recently got a built in job on the back of the fact that all the other firms the customer spoke with made their shaker doors by just sticking some 6mm MDF on the front of some 12mm MDF. The customer was horrified that a professional would make them like that, I did explain mine would only be 22mm MDF rails and stiles dominoed together with a 9mm MDF panel sitting in a groove but in their opinion mine were proper doors.

Sounds like a keeper - anyone who recognises doors made from MDF as being proper doors has done their homework!

 

[BrandonB]

I do think it must be tough specialising in built in furniture because as you say these days anyone with a bit of skill and a track saw can just rock up with a few sheets of MDF and create some impressive results.

I recently got a built in job on the back of the fact that all the other firms the customer spoke with made their shaker doors by just sticking some 6mm MDF on the front of some 12mm MDF. The customer was horrified that a professional would make them like that, I did explain mine would only be 22mm MDF rails and stiles dominoed together with a 9mm MDF panel sitting in a groove but in their opinion mine were proper doors.

To be fair, people are trying to run the cost down in order to compete and stay in business. If you have a large install which requires say 6 shaker style doors with beading and needs to be sprayed. If you were to make up the doors in a 5 piece construction for example. The amount of time it would take compared to sticking strips of MDF to some 12mm MDF is night and day. I don't agree with this method, but I understand why it happens. If it takes you say 2 hours more per door to domino, assemble, glue up, sand down, fine fill, sand again in order to produce one single door. Someone else could of made 4 doors in the same time.
It's a business mindset over the carpenters mindset. I personally used to make all of my doors the 5 piece construction way, but from a recent experience it just doesn't pay, especially when you have a large amount of doors to make, assemble, glue up, sand, fill, sand etc. Yeah, sure they turned out amazing and are the real deal BUT the client doesn't care and most likely wouldn't want to pay you more for the sake of doing it like that. It can sometimes be the difference between getting the job and losing the job.

I personally will move to cutting the door out of a single sheet of 22mm and rebating the panels in and making sure to square off the inside corners to avoid the small radius left by the cutter, way quicker and easier, with that said. Alot of people don't make their doors. They're ordered in with a melamine/foil wrap doors or purchased from a CNC company. Again another method to make money and save time and lower the overall cost. (you can tell i've spent some time thinking about it all).

It's things like this which can undercut you and make your quote seem unreasonable. But the client doesn't notice or doesn't care, you know you've done a way better job and provided the client with a high quality install which won't crack, split or bow over time. You know if you have any more work in the house it will remain exactly the same as when you fitted it. No orange peel texture with the paint, no bending or warping with the doors. No filler sagging about under the paint because someone's face fixed it. But ultimately client's just don't care. They only worry about the cost and not so much about the end result.

 

[Bingy man]

There are customers who care about the finer details and want the product to last and not to have the problems associated with the cheaper, mass produced products but the problem is for every one of those customers there is 20/30 / 40 etc of customers who just want the job done as quickly and as cheaply as possible. You said it yourself that most customers don’t understand the work involved to produce a quality product and would not be able to tell the difference, the jobs I do vary from small jobs like a new pair of taps or replacing a radiator to a full bathroom refit including new flooring, tiles , or a new kitchen. But big or small I always ask the same question- how much do want to spend eg £30 on a new tap or £300. £1,000 on a kitchen or £3,000 . I’ve recently updated a bathroom in a rented property so owner didn’t want to spend hundreds- got him a complete shower inc handset and rail and the overhead rainfall head for £70 delivered ( yes it’s from china ) but so what it works just as well as the £300 + showers and when the inevitable happens scrap it and fit another. My point is and I don’t mean you should lower your standards and not give a s…t but maybe offer different levels of quality- put simply bronze basic no thrills cheap as chips to silver - the next level up -a step up from the basic but still not the gold standard bespoke work you are currently offering but not getting many takers . And just to put this into perspective I take the same amount of care and pride in my work if I’m fitting a £400 bathroom suit or one that costs many thousands more . My preferred option for a new bathroom is to rip the lot out and remove the old tiles and flooring and start from scratch but most of my customers simply can’t afford this approach so we find a compromise. I insist the traps and waste pipes are replaced as this is definitely a false economy. As I’ve said previously I wish you well and super good luck but there’s no point only selling Lamborghinis and mclarens if the majority of your customers can only afford or Vauxhall . This way you should be able to offer a range of services that more can afford while keeping yourself in work . You may also find that some customers will want to avoid the basic bronze package because if the neighbour for example has just had a new expensive kitchen or bedroom they may want to keep up . Anyway like I say it’s worth thinking about.. again good luck and don’t give up..

 

[Kayen]

To WHOM are you marketing yourself to?

HOW are you marketing yourself?

As a bespoke designer/maker, you have to be targeting the right people - they don't generally live in three-bed terraced or semi-detached houses. At that level, you are competing against the pin gun, mini-roller, and acrylic primer crew, and you will never win because for those clients it's all about the price and nothing about the quality.

Are your inquiries coming from your area's best postcodes?

Even in tough times, the wealthy have money - they are your target audience.

Systemise your pricing so it takes you minutes not hours to come up with a quote.

You sound like you have knowledge, passion, integrity, know-how and skill - extend that to all areas of your business (especially the marketing) and you'll be fine. The good thing about this business (which might be unique) is that we will help each other out and don't see other makers as competition, so identify the best in the business and pick the phone up, I'd be surprised if they won't give you some helpful advice.

 

[Just4Fun]

ps. I've always found if you ask the client what is there budget, most of the time the answer is 'i don't know, how much does it cost?'

I can relate to that. Certainly I am always reluctant to say what my budget is when I buy something.

As a way around that, could you show some photos of work you have done and say what each job cost, then ask which of the projects most closely matches what they had in mind? How any of those examples could be modified to suit their needs? That should get some useful response - even if they hum and haw that will tell you something.

In my own (totally unrelated) line of work I have found that most customers do not negotiate. They accept a price or disappear, with no middle ground. That makes it difficult, leaving no real clue what the issue is, so I do understand the problem.

 

[Scruples]

Speaking as a customer for several different trades, it is becoming the norm to get quotes that appear to be plucked from the ether. When you consider the retail prices of the materials and consumables, the labour element can appear unrealistic to a lot of people.

Trades are valuable, of course, but there may be an element of, 'What's the most I can get?' rather than 'What is this job worth?'. That will bring a stampede of outraged contractors but it is how a lot of people see the trades these days. I speak as a retired tradesman when we weren't afraid to show the customer a breakdown of the costs.

 

[HOJ]

ps. I've always found if you ask the client what is there budget, most of the time the answer is 'i don't know, how much does it cost?' before you've had a chance to work out the amount of material needed and design. so you end up doing the leg work for an expected cost to either be ignored or given the go ahead.

Systemise your pricing so it takes you minutes not hours to come up with a quote.

A quick reply to this, do you not have a given rate per meter of unit run, that would be my way of understanding client finances very quickly, rather than having to design and then price, I still say everyone knows how much their budget is, its directly related to how much cash is in the bank!

You talk a lot about methods of making doors, if this is the part/s that you struggle with making cost effectively, then outsource, I'm sure someone like Freebird would be in a better position to make them with the investment they have made in their processes, rather than you invest in a CNC machine with the financial liability to do so, which will add to the cost of making them as well, surely.

a large install which requires say 6 shaker style doors with beading and needs to be sprayed

I have to be honest that isn't in my mind a "large" job so it will be very hard to be competitive against a more efficient operator.

we weren't afraid to show the customer a breakdown of the costs.

That is the way I work, and in some case's go full open book, and more so for those client's who can claim the vat back directly.

 

[paulrbarnard]

In my own (totally unrelated) line of work I have found that most customers do not negotiate. They accept a price or disappear, with no middle ground. That makes it difficult, leaving no real clue what the issue is, so I do understand the problem.

The one thing that guarantees me to never contact someone again is if they come back with a lower price for the same job. Had that recently on a quote for replacing our drive. Contacted a company recommended by two different people in the village. They came measured up and provided a quote. I declined as it was out of our budget. The next day they came back with a ‘special’ reduction which annoyed me greatly as the obviously had priced on what they thought I could pay rather than the job itself. I told them no again and they came back with an even lower cost. I didn’t reply at that point.

There is always room for negotiation but it needs to be clear up front that is anticipated or expected and it should be negation on materials, methods, compromises and perhaps replacing difficult elements with a different suggestion. It should never be a lower price for the same job.

On a recent bathroom replacement, where I was the customer, the quote got reduced significantly by selection of different fittings, different lighted wall cabinet etc. for sure there was a bit of too and fro as the contractor wanted to use a specific supplier who doubtless gives him a much lower price than in the catalogue. But we reached an agreement in the end and the final result was great. I posted about it before as the fitters made a slip and installed the toilet too close to the wall but the very positive response of the contractor and immediate rework means I now recommend them highly if anyone asks for a recommendation.

 

[Just4Fun]

There is always room for negotiation but it needs to be clear up front that is anticipated or expected and it should be negation on materials, methods, compromises and perhaps replacing difficult elements with a different suggestion. It should never be a lower price for the same job.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. In my world, on the rare occasions I have negotiated about price, I have always started from "IF". If we can eliminate this feature, the price would drop by £X. If I can do the job at some time in the next 6 months, at my convenience to tie in with other jobs, then the price could drop by £Y. If I can do the job entirely from home, then the price could drop by £Z. It is always give and take to (try to) arrive at a mutually-agreeable solution.

 

[Bingy man]

I think a good point is that for me it’s the same cost in ( labour) to fit a £1000 bathroom suite as it is to fit one that costs £3000 - I also agree with @paulrbarnard and that once the price is given that’s the price- amazing how many companies put it that super inflated price and then return a few days later “ they are working nearby and can now offer the same job for £1000 less I tell all my customers to get alternative quotes from other companies as soon as the “ can you do it any cheaper “ question comes out . I’ve some off the cuff comments for these eg “yes I can do it for 50% less but I’ll only do 50% of the work “ !!!

 

[Jacob]

I think you hit the nail on the head there. In my world, on the rare occasions I have negotiated about price, I have always started from "IF". If we can eliminate this feature, the price would drop by £X. If I can do the job at some time in the next 6 months, at my convenience to tie in with other jobs, then the price could drop by £Y. If I can do the job entirely from home, then the price could drop by £Z. It is always give and take to (try to) arrive at a mutually-agreeable solution.

Few occasions when I've been asked for "best price" or whatever, I've put the price up. A polite way to tell them to efff off.

 

[Jameshow]

The one thing that guarantees me to never contact someone again is if they come back with a lower price for the same job. Had that recently on a quote for replacing our drive. Contacted a company recommended by two different people in the village. They came measured up and provided a quote. I declined as it was out of our budget. The next day they came back with a ‘special’ reduction which annoyed me greatly as the obviously had priced on what they thought I could pay rather than the job itself. I told them no again and they came back with an even lower cost. I didn’t reply at that point.

There is always room for negotiation but it needs to be clear up front that is anticipated or expected and it should be negation on materials, methods, compromises and perhaps replacing difficult elements with a different suggestion. It should never be a lower price for the same job.

On a recent bathroom replacement, where I was the customer, the quote got reduced significantly by selection of different fittings, different lighted wall cabinet etc. for sure there was a bit of too and fro as the contractor wanted to use a specific supplier who doubtless gives him a much lower price than in the catalogue. But we reached an agreement in the end and the final result was great. I posted about it before as the fitters made a slip and installed the toilet too close to the wall but the very positive response of the contractor and immediate rework means I now recommend them highly if anyone asks for a recommendation.

People like to feel they have a bargain...

The quoted £5k but I knocked them down to £3k.

Same with sofas, carpets and uPVC windows imho.

The real price is the discount price, it's only the vulnerable and poor old ladies who get the full price but it gives the general public punter a nice feeling esp for SM!

 

[paulrbarnard]

People like to feel they have a bargain...

The quoted £5k but I knocked them down to £3k.

Same with sofas, carpets and uPVC windows imho.

The real price is the discount price, it's only the vulnerable and poor old ladies who get the full price but it gives the general public punter a nice feeling esp for SM!

And so propagating a bad reputation for the ‘rip off’ builder/trades people.
I would not be able to sleep at nights knowing I was ripping off the “vulnerable and poor old ladies”.

 

[HOJ]

But we reached an agreement in the end and the final result was great

Presumably you all sat round the table and did this, as in face to face, makes my world go round, I closed on another job late this morning, client buys materials, knows my labour charge, my overheads and tooling costs, everyone's happy, (just got to fit it in somehow now)

 

[BrandonB]

The one thing that guarantees me to never contact someone again is if they come back with a lower price for the same job. Had that recently on a quote for replacing our drive. Contacted a company recommended by two different people in the village. They came measured up and provided a quote. I declined as it was out of our budget. The next day they came back with a ‘special’ reduction which annoyed me greatly as the obviously had priced on what they thought I could pay rather than the job itself. I told them no again and they came back with an even lower cost. I didn’t reply at that point.

There is always room for negotiation but it needs to be clear up front that is anticipated or expected and it should be negation on materials, methods, compromises and perhaps replacing difficult elements with a different suggestion. It should never be a lower price for the same job.

On a recent bathroom replacement, where I was the customer, the quote got reduced significantly by selection of different fittings, different lighted wall cabinet etc. for sure there was a bit of too and fro as the contractor wanted to use a specific supplier who doubtless gives him a much lower price than in the catalogue. But we reached an agreement in the end and the final result was great. I posted about it before as the fitters made a slip and installed the toilet too close to the wall but the very positive response of the contractor and immediate rework means I now recommend them highly if anyone asks for a recommendation.

Yeah, I mean I never do this. If I'm asked 'best price' or the old 'price in cash mate, best price??' it's the same amount regardless. It's disrespectful to try and knock an independent business because you want a 'deal' or would like some discount because you chose to use a local business rather than a chain store. Never knock a small business down for price on a quote, it's a massive disrespect in my books.

I have experienced people price and quote jobs for clients with the attitude of 'how much can I get' and not how long will it take, what do I need materials wise and am I being reasonable? it's a straight up grab for cash.

I agree it's very shady when a company gives you a quote for an install and it's very high, you show no interest. They contact you again to follow up regarding their quote and they magically are able to shave a good lump off the price...what if you'd just went along in the first place...yeah it's bad practice.

Don't get me wrong, I have been able to cut the prices down here and there for clients, but it's usually with a compromise on design, finish or material used with a sort of explaination why I originally quoted to use the better one. But again, they don't care.

I think I will develop a system in order to quote in minutes rather than an hour or two. I have to quickly sketch up their install in order to pull the amount of sheet material needed for their install and in order to show them a quick render of how everything will look and what I am quoting to do. I currently work with a spreadsheet which I made where I can select the items from an inventory which has the cost attached to it. Everything is put together in a list with the amount, cost and mark up. So it's fairly quick, but you just need to draw out their install first....which I think I need to stop doing and start working to a linear meter or just produce a catalogue with cost prices with 3 tiers as mentioned earlier in this thread. They can spend their own time deciding and know the cost straight away.

Well this has been a really helpful thread for myself a few others I feel!

 

[Bingy man]

I imagine ( to echo the above post) that this thread has been useful to many members inc myself. What I’ve realised is my customers pay for the materials upfront wether they pay themselves or send me the money to pay on their behalf. I charge them the labour per day but I’ve picked up from this thread that I’m not charging for consumables ( plugs, screw , glue , nails etc) so I’m going to start factoring in 10 or 15 % to cover this cost . As a rule I don’t add anything to the materials so the cust gets the benefit of any discount from the supplier but I do make them aware of this . So yes as above a good thread ..

 

[johnnyb]

these costs must surely be pennies even in a biggish job. materials are always marked up as buying them is only the beginning. travelling to pick them up mauling them in the workshop. has to be factored in

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I imagine ( to echo the above post) that this thread has been useful to many members inc myself. What I’ve realised is my customers pay for the materials upfront wether they pay themselves or send me the money to pay on their behalf. I charge them the labour per day but I’ve picked up from this thread that I’m not charging for consumables ( plugs, screw , glue , nails etc) so I’m going to start factoring in 10 or 15 % to cover this cost . As a rule I don’t add anything to the materials so the cust gets the benefit of any discount from the supplier but I do make them aware of this . So yes as above a good thread ..

I'm with johnnyb in that if you're not marking up your materials you're passing them on to your clients at a loss. Even if you don't go out and collect the materials yourself and only spend time getting prices and ordering them for delivery you're investing your time and experience which has to be worth something.

I've always worked on the basis of applying 100% mark up for rough sawn solid wood, 50% mark up for board materials and 20% mark up for proprietary stuff, e.g., polish, hardware, abrasives, and other sundries. I'm semi-retired now so worrying about being competitive and making a profit isn't high on my list of priorities but, for example, if buying rough sawn solid wood cost me £500 it was resold to the client at £1000. The mark up was/is to cover sourcing and pricing, picking and collection, transport, labour, storage, etc. Even if I simply ordered wood and the supplier picked the boards and delivered I applied the same 100% mark up: that was simply to keep estimating or pricing simple, fair or not to my client.

On a side note, if a client insisted, against my advice, on supplying their own materials, particularly rough sawn hardwood, I frequently found there were good reasons to reject it, e.g., inferior quality, wrong sizes, and so on. That meant the client had to go through the whole return and buying thing again, which did tend to upset them, but that was the risk they'd taken on. And if the stuff a customer bought was suitable there's still the question of storage and handling at my end and I could always somehow find a way to charge for this service through, for example, bumping up other charges somewhere else, e.g., in the labour. Slainte.

 

[clogs]

Last week had a quote of £175 just to replace a toilet flush button......house in UK......
at the same time we also need one of the bathrooms gutted and rebuilt, medium qual.....
this guy wont get the job on principal.......

It's ok specializing in fitted furniture etc but be prepared to just make a garden gate for someones granny......
it certainly leads to a lot of work.....you cant make big money all the time....
if time's were good I'd often do little jobs for a local granny for free, well a brew and a slice of cake.....
that big wheel keeps turning and good deeds will pay off.......
sorry if u have a big mortgage......
had a rented workshop and found it cheaper to move house with a exsisting w/s or room to build one.........
no neighbours obviously....

work for people with nice houses and yes people with money dont like spending it.....
Very rarely will someone with a bought council hose spend thousands on builtin's....

I rebuild antique vehicles.....if someone asks how much.....
I show them the door and tell em they can't afford me.....I just work for those that can and I'm not that expensive.......
I'd sooner sit on me bum than work for nowt or a little now.....
but everyones needs are different....

 

[johnnyb]

if you gibbed on paying £175 for one job I wouldn't want to do your bathroom as they always finish north of £10k. I'm not gonna break this guys costs down but it's probably 1/2 a day and £25 for the part. it's the same labour rate as most need to charge to survive. that's 4 hrs to come and look and drive home. prepare a quote and let you have it. drive back
then identify the correct part drive and fetch it bring it back and fit it. then drive back. address any issues or guarantees arising. potentially plus vat.