Time for a change?

[BrandonB]

Hi all I thought I’d make this post as I was curious if any time served carpenters called it a day and tried a new career. If so, what did they go into?

We are experiencing our quietest year to date. We moved into a premises, invested in some small equipment when we were busy, but in the last 2 months we are frequently experiencing our quotes ignored and declined. We aren’t operating with a massive profit margin, nor are we charging a high amount compared to the local competition and the ‘day rates’ for this area.

We go through countless quotes, client calls and visits, we don’t seem to be able to catch a break or get the jobs accepted and booked in. I know it isn’t how much I’m charging but I can’t figure it out or see what is going wrong. We specialise in fitted furniture, wardrobes, alcove units and kitchens with a great portfolio and extensive positive feedback. I’ve recently had I’ve had to return to being a carpenter on do the ‘site bashing’ into have work booked in.

It currently feels like 2 steps forward, and 3 steps back. I am questioning is it really worth it anymore? 11 years as a carpenter, with the last 4/5 years spent specializing in fitted furniture. I started out as an apprentice and worked my way up.

If you’ve been in a similar boat, did you sink or swim?

 

[Doug71]

Things have definitely slowed down around here, I'm not as busy as normal and everyone I speak to is saying the same. The local Howdens depot is back to phoning me each week to see if I want anything, they don't do that when they're busy.
I think it will get worse before it gets better, people just don't have the money at the moment to spend on upgrading stuff, they are just making do.
A lot of people spent a lot of money on their houses around covid time, they were stuck at home with money in their pockets so ended up buying new kitchens or landscaping their gardens etc, things like that don't need re doing again for at least probably ten years. The trades have all been very busy for the last couple of years but I can't see it lasting much longer.

 

[Bingy man]

I think it’s far too easy for folk to go to the likes of ikea , bnq , oak furniture land etc. they can get a complete overhaul for a few hundred and not that many will go the bespoke route .competition is extremely tight and of course the so called cost of living is pushing people backwards. I can’t speak of business as I’ve never run one but I'd certainly consider other types of related work to keep yourself afloat during this ( slump ) you could also consider contacting these customers that you have quoted and politely ask why they declined the quote or worse didn’t even get back in touch. It maybe that another firm is picking up your work and undercutting you. If you can speak to several then you might potentially get an idea of what’s going wrong. It’s a good move to post here as I’m sure your probably not alone .. good luck and hope you find your answers.

 

[Spectric]

I think the issue is people are now struggling to pay mortgages & energy cost, on top of this you have really high grocery bills and they have left many peoples income falling far short so the luxuries and nice to haves get canned. It is not just woodworking and furniture, look at the price of secondhand cars, they are high due to people not buying as many new cars to provide a supply to the secondhand market. Then as @Bingy man has said, people are happy to use these outlets because they can afford it and get it on the knock, it is the modern way where quality is not high up the list and if it last five years then time for a change. Again look at modern machinery, not built to last and product life cycles are now much shorter than even twenty years ago. On the other hand we are in a global crisis on many fronts and concerned over shortages of resources yet we still do not accept that we need to give up on the throwaway attitude and buy decent furniture from the likes of @BrandonB that might cost more but probably not only last longer but be unique.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

look at the price of secondhand cars, they are high due to people not buying as many new cars to provide a supply to the secondhand market.

There is some degree of that happening but a bigger effect on car prices is the severely constrained availability of new vehicles that are customised from the factory. While the supply has got better it isn’t as it used to be, of course the general higher prices have also dampened the new car market

 

[Adam W.]

If I was you, I'd ditch the premises ASAP, mothball the gear and get on to a large site to ride it all out and start up again when the situation improves.

It's probably also going to get worse. The large sites which are committed to a lengthy project generally come through when it gets tough, whereas the small guys with overheads, machinery and rented workshops go down the pan.

There's also a shortage of chippies and joiners, so if you have the proper NVQ tickets, you should be able to command a decent daily rate. Also the government have just opened the floodgates for loads of chippies and joiners to come from overseas to work again and they can legally be paid 20% less, which doesn't do anyone any favours.

UK relaxes visa rules for foreign builders amid Brexit shortages

 

[johnnyb]

Brandon your situation is similar to everyone else's tbh. I reckon site work is good atm but the general slowing of demand will peeter that out in 12 months. there's a single house left unsold on a small development that's been there for 2/3 months. it's issue was it was the last one. as we've mentioned your either the man or working for the man. as a manual worker( albeit skilled) I think your better being the man. working for the man is usually dreadful long hours of poor work and poor cash. even on site your working for yourself. why not scrap the hopeless cscs scheme instead of inviting foreign labour in who will just fake there cards anyway.(manual labour is always discriminated against by legislation. they put barriers in that can easily be hopped over by the unscrupulous)
the only other thing I'd say is fitted furniture is luxury and can be shelved (pun intended) until the future.
if your 40 then look to change to a less strenuous profesion say kitchen design anything but lifting stuff as by 50 you will be starting to old with no experience. I discovered many years ago that I don't have a choice I have to do(make)stuff I can't not. maybe a touch of adhd!

 

[Adam W.]

They won't scrap the CSCS cards or NVQ's.

I would recommend a supervisor gold CSCS card as the one you want to get, because that's the one that all contractors have to supply on the large sites and it's the card that few people can be bothered to get hold of.

Next year CSCS is changing too and you'll need a minimum of a blue card which is NVQ2 to work as any trade on a large site. There are lots of people that I know who are ignoring this and think that their industry accreditation is good enough to see them through, it won't.

https://www.cscs.uk.com/news/new-guidance-and-support-for-industry-accreditation-announced/
I'm 57 and have recently gone back on site as a specialist in conservation carpentry and joinery and I love it. I won't work in the domestic sector for private clients again, as it's too much bother messing about with quotes and speculating time wasters.

I work for a man and the man's alright.

 

[johnnyb]

33 years ago I got a city and guilds distinction in carpentry and joinery. I've worked with wood on and off for all those years. I can't get a job on site unless I've got an nvq 2? but some guy who knows a man can get a blue card no questions. most on building sites couldn't pass a dope(yes thats in both senses) test never mind a health and safety test.
my own view is all that will grind to a stop when the current round of buildings over. smart People are leaving now. one was a very successful spark now a site manager.et al et al. I'm constantly bombarded by 16 year old wanting apprenticeships or 50 year olds with redundancy who liked wood at school. unfortuneatly construction as an industry is itinerant. right start Monday ones not turned up. when can you start? Fri? no must be tomorrow. ooh the pay good but try and string a month together etc.

 

[niall Y]

Things are are getting pretty tough at the moment for many of us. Lots of businesses are twiddling their thumbs waiting for work to come their way -and it can be quite a scary situation to be in. Thankfully I am retired now , but I did manage to ride -out two recessions whilst running my own workshop. This was - as @Adam W. has advised - by mothballing the workshop and going back on -site. Lots of the big building projects that have been years in planning, once underway, can offer quite a safe haven to ride out a recession. I appreciate that this might not be an option for some, as it largely depends on your overheads. You can be a lot more agile if you don't owe money for machinery, etc.
However, who you choose to work for, can also be a matter of luck. One firm I unsuccessfully applied to, folded a couple of months later.

There always seems to be a media clamour that there is a shortage of trades on the building sites. , which I believe is due to the boom and bust nature of the work - there is either too much or not enough. And if you're employed in the building, or associated businesses this can be a pain. It is the reason why so many just quit - to get a level of financial stability back into their lives.

 

[Adam W.]

That's why I've tried to get on a very large contract in the city, it's going to go on forever and I'm hoping that I'll be there until I retire.

 

[Jacob]

Hi all I thought I’d make this post as I was curious if any time served carpenters called it a day and tried a new career. If so, what did they go into?

We are experiencing our quietest year to date. We moved into a premises, invested in some small equipment when we were busy, but in the last 2 months we are frequently experiencing our quotes ignored and declined. We aren’t operating with a massive profit margin, nor are we charging a high amount compared to the local competition and the ‘day rates’ for this area.

We go through countless quotes, client calls and visits, we don’t seem to be able to catch a break or get the jobs accepted and booked in. I know it isn’t how much I’m charging but I can’t figure it out or see what is going wrong. We specialise in fitted furniture, wardrobes, alcove units and kitchens with a great portfolio and extensive positive feedback. I’ve recently had I’ve had to return to being a carpenter on do the ‘site bashing’ into have work booked in.

It currently feels like 2 steps forward, and 3 steps back. I am questioning is it really worth it anymore? 11 years as a carpenter, with the last 4/5 years spent specializing in fitted furniture. I started out as an apprentice and worked my way up.

If you’ve been in a similar boat, did you sink or swim?

Make some stuff to sell?

 

[AJB Temple]

I think Adam has nailed it. There has been a huge amount of development in our area of Kent (which has had a marked effect of driving house prices up) and massive demand for all trades. However....there is a feeling that the local building boom is nearing the end as most houses are built now. The first sign is bricklayers are suddenly available. The best ones (in developer speak = fastest) are still hard at it, but others are now touting for business.

Having run a property development company in my past, and employed all trades for lengthy periods, if I was a specialised sole trader (joinery for example) I would have looked to sell the business as soon as the local boom started. Highly skilled and accredited craftsmen will always be in demand. Three of the guys who do work for me now and again and who I regard as friends, are a plumber, a bricklayer and a plasterer. All three decided not to work for the big house builders locally, but to keep building their local domestic and commercial portfolios instead. They cleaned up actually and now have a loyal and wide customer base and enough repeat business. None of them need or have the expense of a workshop or yard and none of them need expensive machinery. The plumber has some expensive gear as he does specialist pipework, but all of it is small.

So as an ex employer, I too would be suggesting if you are struggling to get custom, mothball the machines as cheaply as possible (or sell them) and grab whatever sitework is going in order to pay the bills. In the meantime it is worth dealing with your website, instagram, facebook and customer book (newsletter - keep in touch and let them know you are still available). Good luck. Genuine effort from genuine people is always rewarded.

 

[Spectric]

there is a feeling that the local building boom is nearing the end as most houses are built now.

There is a difference between new builds and the work a decent woodworker is capable of, new builds are more in the realm of shed building and are slung up using cheap mass produced kitchens and the builders are only interested in the appearance and not the quality. An excuse is that they give the buyer something to be getting on with but know at some point they will fit what they want. If you are a decent woodworker who likes to deliver say a quality bespoke kitchen and nice pieces of furniture then site work will be soul destroying and you may be better off getting into property restoration.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Increased mortgage rates and inflation feed anxiety.

Some are now financially stretched. Low to middle earners are likely to be most affected with mortgages, children and limited accumulated wealth - even in more stable times they will infrequently use craftsmen but no doubt favour Ikea, DFS, B&Q, Wren etc etc.

Those with higher incomes and greater wealth may typically be older. Economic uncertainty may not impact lifestyle but will make them more nervous about spending substantial sums, particularly if the project is largely discretionary and not essential.

Mothballing kit and reducing outgoings seems conceptually sound but depends on personal circumstances. Can rent, insurance, business rates, utilities etc be avoided? Can alternative employment be found? As others have noted calling previously satisfied customers may generate some new business.

There is no crystal ball to anticipate how long and how deep the downturn (the government don't like the "R" word) will be. With the high level of UK borrowing there may be little prospect of a "feel good" factor (reduced taxes, GDP growth etc) + election uncertainty for several years.

 

[BrandonB]

Thank you everyone for your feedback and thoughts, it is much appreciated.
I did think of reducing the overheads by say, letting go of the current unit. But, if you let go of the unit you won't have anywhere to make the higher end stuff and I know if I put the unit back on the market, I won't get it back and I will be paying more for the current space I have. Short term, yes it would make sense to let it go and crack on keeping yourself busy, but you also stump your growth further down the line if it picks up or if you're offered a large install you have the capacity to take it on as well as doing the site 'house bashing'. It's a double edged sword, I think i'll wait it out a little longer as I believe I can do it. I mean, I'm only 28 years old and have spent/dedicated my life to being able to do everything in carpentry, from roofs to kitchens, to joists and bespoke CAD drawings and design.

Regards working for the man and site work. I've worked for a few people over the years and you kind of get the feeling as if you're never doing enough for them? Working for someone who can't be bothered to plan or think jobs through and relies on you and your ability to basically micro manage everything, plan and set it out and do the job. Whilst they just sit back without putting any effort in and cream off the top from your hard work and experience, it's hard to swallow sometimes. Saying that, I have worked for a few people who are spot on. They pay well and have actually thought everything through and want to work with you rather than just rent you out and allow you sort it out whilst they earn on you.

Site work isn't carpentry in my opinion. Everything is mostly pre-done for you now and everything is a jig. Jig for doors, handles, locks and hardly any care or decent quality taken whilst installing linings, skirtings or architraves. It's all about throwing it on and waiting to be called to come back, where you are paid to come back and put things right or it's given to someone else on day rate to sort out cause the lads on price have smashed it in. I think the skill of carpentry has been lost, especially if someone starts an apprenticeship on big site and that's all they know.

 

[dzj]

Everyone's situation is different. I went through a period of 'seven lean cows' back in the 90s.
Socioeconomic collapse, hyperinflation, wars...A terrible time.
I got through it thanks to the fact that I had no debt and I owned the building I worked in.
That was my advantage. Little by little, as years went by, competitors closed shop and business eventually picked up.
It's a cyclical thing, I guess (like that foxes and rabbits dynamics), but you have to have the stomach for it.

 

[ian33a]

I think that the spending squeeze will last a fairly long time and hasn't bitten as hard ro as quickly as the Government hoped it would. It may well take between two and five years for existing cheap fixed rate mortgages to expire and borrowers will be forced to accept whatever rate is on offer at the time. Once locked in they will be held on a more expensive rate for as long as the fixed rate period and the majority and not the minority of borrowers will be affected. It isn't as if they can decided to borrow just a bit, borrowers have to borrow enough to fund the outstand debt. In addition, for as long as the Ukranian war runs and if Trump gets in, I suspect that the world will remain in a state of flux and this will hold oil, food and a host of other stuff at relatively high prices.

 

[Adam W.]

Yes, I'll agree with dzj, that the way through a recession for a self employed carpenter/joiner/anyone is to have little or no debt. I've never had a workshop that isn't attached to the property that I own, so wouldn't know how much they cost, but I have been through a couple of recessions without losing the roof over my head, by taking on work if its there.
At the moment, there's lots of high household debt and that's going to be a big problem for a lot of people very soon.

As for site work and the is it or isn't it carpentry question.......I work on conservation contracts, where it's joinery and lots of repairing old wooden stuff, so yes it is carpentry and joinery in that part of the industry. I've got myself into quite a nice gig and I get to use hand tools on site all the time. The youngsters do the carrying, cutting and playing with their machines, I'll even lend them my Makita battery powered saw so that I don't have to use it, and then I do the really fiddly stuff that they don't want to do anyway.

If they are interested, I'm more than happy to teach them as much as I can. A few want to learn, but most can't be arrised and carry on knocking 2" together and humping OSB, for them, that's carpentry.

 

[Jacob]

..... I think i'll wait it out a little longer

Wait what out? What do you think will turn up?

as I believe I can do it. I mean, I'm only 28 years old ....

Absolute beginner! I'm 78, still trying to sort out my career!
Maybe you've committed yourself too soon to a particular way of working, or type of work?
But to adapt and survive may mean doing things differently rather than giving up on them?