Timber houses.

[Digit]

Those members here who have bothered to follow my meanderings over the years know that I live in a timber house, AKA a garden shed!
The basic structure is 32ft long x 16ft wide. 4 X 2 timber frames, 1/2 inch plaster board interior and feather edge (clapboard) exterior. The roof was close boarded then hot felted before covering with corrugated asbestos cement sheets, most of which has now been replaced with rubber sheet.
The house was built in Canada in 1938 then used here as POW accommodation till being moved to its present site in 1952, since when it has been considerably extended and modernised. We moved here in '99 and the major difficulty we have faced with improvements is obtaining professional help, there isn't any!
For example, due to my age I would be entitled to help with cavity wall insulation, no chance! No national company will even consider the job, so for the last fortnight I have been stuffing the cavity with Warmcel paper insulation. Then arose the question, do I need a vapour barrier?
The Net has been a God send as most of my problems have been faced in the States and Canada, in some cases we have simply had to try something and see what happens.
So where is all this heading?
Here!

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source ... qg&cad=rja

If anyone in the future is interested I'll let you know how it performs as I start in a few days time.

Roy.

 

[studders]

Very interesting Roy. Be keen to see any results/progress.

 

[Digit]

I'll post info on the steps I take and results Studders.
I can see no reason why it shouldn't work as any DG system is only as good as the seals. Time will tell.

Roy.

 

[studders]

My problem is cost. I have lots of identical small windows and the cost of a single, small window is not much less than the cost of a single window the size of the small windows combined; if you see what I mean? I suppose the biggest cost being the frame accounts for this? If I could make my own I think I could save a small fortune. I keep meaning to do 'something' but have never really got started so, perhaps this method might just give me the jog I need?

 

[Digit]

My place has a lot of glass, all single glazed, double glazing would be acceptable using conventional units, but by all accounts DG in wooden frames means a short life.
The idea of being able to service them is what appeals to me.

Roy.

 

[studders]

by all accounts DG in wooden frames means a short life.


Roy.

I'm assuming you're talking about the life of the Window? :shock:

That appears to be true in my case, the large windows at the back were all replaced with Wooden DG units: they started misting up after about 10-15 years. Not that impressive in my op. A friend had hers done in Aluminium Frames and they haven't lasted long either.

 

[Digit]

Some of the DIY forums are stating as little as 6-8 yrs in harsher environments studders, 15 yrs is pretty good apparently, this is why the maintainable approach appeals.
I live on the west coast of Wales, it can be very hot then a sudden drop in temp followed by heavy rain etc.
My house is Creosoted, paint doesn't last five minutes!

Roy.

 

[Hivenhoe]

Probably teaching you too suck eggs but if there's inadequate drainage under the DG unit, the sun's energy will "boil" any trapped water which breaks down the bottom thin hot melt seals between the glass and spacer bar. This allows water vapor to enter but not exit thus the misting. Basically the same as the green house effect, solar water heating panels or a solar wax melter, surprising how hot it can get under glass .

 

[Digit]

Thus the need for the desicant. With existing DG units once that is saturated then that's it, finished!
You can purchase orange Silica Gel that turns green when wet, it is then dried and used again.
The failure of DG units is down to failure of the seals, in theory the panes could be welded together, (as in a Dewar vessel). In practise that is not practical.
When I started on this line I was surprised to learn that DG units had a 'life', I assumed that they lasted indefinitely. The short life is what led to my present course.
Two sealed panes that can move independently of each other must logically be the superior route, especially when you consider that a 20 degree inner temp against a minus 20 outer is quite possible.

Roy.

 

[Eric The Viking]

We've got pretty good units here now, but before them I was considering drilling in from the edge (side) of the casements, at the bottom, and inserting perforated drinking straws of silica gel, with a cord on, so I could pull them out when saturated.

I never tried it in the end. One reason was I found out that the 'gel' you get with electronics is usually nowadays beads coated with silica gel, so you can't easily re-use it. The proper stuff can be dried out in an oven or microwave and re-used, but I couldn't find a source of actual crystals.

Have you found one yourself?

E.

 

[Digit]

The orange ones I mentioned are on E-Bay in various quantities, but I think they are beads.
The link I showed for the DIY DG units uses 'O' ring rubber as seals. I have not been able to locate strip for years so I've decided to use 'P' section draft excluder. Unless anyone knows where 'O' ring strip is available from.
The sketch in the link I can not copy as I intend using my existing frames, so I intend making a sub frame to attach inside the frame leaving the exterior glass where it is. The Silica Gel I intend putting into a long thin container, when I can think of one!

Roy.

 

[RogerS]

....Unless anyone knows where 'O' ring strip is available from.
.....
Roy.

Your wish is my command!

http://www.reddiseals.com/seals/silplex ... seals.html

How are you going to make the dessicant 'attractive' ?

Studders...there is a fixed labour cost/overhead when making up dgu's. This is the same be it a small pane 8" x 10" or a larger window ...which is why small dgu's are relatively expensive compared to lager ones.

Like you I am watching this thread with interest.

This website also has a wealth of information http://www.thewindowman.co.uk/explode.htm

For desiccant why not simply buy some double glazing spacer bars and put one loose at the bottom of each unit? They look neat and are inexpensive

 

[Digit]

Ta Rog. That's that problem solved.
I wasn't aware that the spacer bars were avaiable Rog, I'll talk to our local glazier, thanks again.
One of the things I've learnt about DG is that the preferred gap is some what greater than that which is used in the 'standard' 4-12-4 structures. But one thing I did work out for myself was the subject of thermal shock and pressure, for example.
We have a glass area A.
Energy absorbed in time T.
This will result in the air/gas temp rising to T2.
This equates to a pressure rise of P.
Now if the space between the panes is doubled T2 is reduced, as is P, therebye placing less stress on the seals.
The method of using two independently sealed glass panes must logically assist in this matter as well.
I have 28 domestic windows to DG, not counting small panels in various doors which I am not planning to DG at this time. The average size is about 4 sq mtrs, some larger, some smaller.
As this house is timber, and the weather is like paint stripper here, there are verandas on three sides with double skin plastic sheet covering, and the heat on the glass can be high, but then the air temp can drop dramatically with a sudden rain shower.
Before I changed to silicon for glass bedding glass has cracked, which seems to be down to this. One more reason why I am reluctant to go down the normal DG route.
Also of course the local authority is not involved! (hammer)

Roy.

 

[Eric The Viking]

The Silica Gel I intend putting into a long thin container, when I can think of one!

Drinking straws! The fat ones from fast food places are ideal (straws, I mean, not customers!). They come in plain white and clear.

A 1/2" wide strip of kitchen paper rolled-up makes a bung for the end, dipped in PVA to solidify. A bit of string stuffed in with the paper makes it easily removed, and a line of holes made with a hot paperclip lets the moisture get to the gel. I haven't tried, but I guess you could make a 'train' of the things to go all along the bottom of the panel.

The only drawback to this is that you can't reprocess the gel without dis-assembly. Normally, heating above 110degC or microwaving (with care - I once started a small fire doing this!) regenerates the Gel, but you risk melting the plastic straw in this case.

Glass tube (chem lab type) would also be good (using sponge for a plug?), but I think you'd have to thread a number of pieces together on string, as otherwise moisture couldn't easily get to the gel in the middle of a long piece. It would be fiddly. It's usually only borosilicate glass though so might be drilled, but I don't know the technique. It would take heat though, so you could in theory regenerate it without dismantling.

http://www.dixonglass.co.uk/repairs.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silica_Gel

 

[bosshogg]

I can only assume that the moderators have stopped my post due to me cutting and pasting an article from the Sunday Telegraph pertaining to this thread? But I feel it is as good an expression of the realities of D/G units, and in particular replacement windows advertised as - maintainance free - guaranteed to last a life time - security windows - and other such quotes aimed at the unsuspecting populace. So I will post the articles URL...make your own mind up...bosshogg

http://www.askjeff.co.uk/double_glazing.html (hammer)

 

[studders]

Studders...there is a fixed labour cost/overhead when making up dgu's. This is the same be it a small pane 8" x 10" or a larger window ...which is why small dgu's are relatively expensive compared to lager ones.

Yup, I guessed that might be the reason Rog. Wish I could knock out the Brick pillars, put a lintel in and just fit bigger Windows but.... I'm not allowed to do that.

 

[RogerS]

One thought is that if the existing glazing bars were large/deep enough, that you could rout out a rebate on the inside surface of each pane , square up the corners, apply the stick on circular seal ...as linked to on the reddiseals site ...then add the second pane and glazing beads to secure.

 

[Digit]

I like the bit about it being easy to deapen the rebate using a router, not on mine it ain't!
Everything I read only tends to confirm that the best solution is two independently sealed panes.

Roy.

 

[Digit]

I shall be ordering the bubble seal tomorrow that Rog linked to.
Work will start shortly with one of the larger windows, at the moment I'm busy shovelling granular insulation into the wall cavities. I get all the good jobs in this house!
Anyone seen how much these useless 'green' taxes are adding to our energy bills?
In three years my LPG bill has risen from £50/mnth to £125/mnth!

Roy.

 

[DTR]

I can only assume that the moderators have stopped my post due to me cutting and pasting an article from the Sunday Telegraph pertaining to this thread? But I feel it is as good an expression of the realities of D/G units, and in particular replacement windows advertised as - maintainance free - guaranteed to last a life time - security windows - and other such quotes aimed at the unsuspecting populace. So I will post the articles URL...make your own mind up...bosshogg

http://www.askjeff.co.uk/double_glazing.html (hammer)

That was an interesting read, thanks for posting