Thoughts on this project

[Crocks]

My wife’s cousin has asked me to remove the ivory in this little table top. Reasons are ethical and I’m not going to get into that.
I’m probably going to prise them out or use a dremel. I suspect they are fairly shallow. Nuclear option is to sand the top off completely losing the trees. I could fill the elephant spaces with coloured epoxy? Any other ideas?

 

[baldkev]

After you've removed it, you could infil with resin or a light coloured timber, BUT , i think to make it look good, you'll need to copy the detail on the elephants to avoid it looking like white blobs. Can you trace round them to create templates before you remove?

 

[Valhalla]

My wife’s cousin has asked me to remove the ivory in this little table top. Reasons are ethical and I’m not going to get into that.
I’m probably going to prise them out or use a dremel. I suspect they are fairly shallow. Nuclear option is to sand the top off completely losing the trees. I could fill the elephant spaces with coloured epoxy? Any other ideas? View attachment 149802

Firstly, I would establish whether the elephants are actually ivory before removing anything.

 

[mikej460]

They might be glued in with hide glue so you could try warming them with a dremel torch? Also if they soften then they're plastic.

But don't do anything until you have carefully traced each one and also taken close up photos..

 

[Argus]

They might look like Elephants, but I very much doubt that they are Ivory.

'Modern' tourist tat like that may have been sold as such, but seldom had the real thing.

 

[Inspector]

I would get some rosewood or similar, make a new top and tell her that you butchered it up getting the elephants out so you made her a new one. You could also tell her the wood is on the Cites list (even if it isn't) and is unethical too so you made a new top out of walnut. Keep the top for someone that likes it. Is she going to go out and destroy all the old pianos because they used Ivory to make the keys? To many twits on the planet.

Pete

Adding there are some easy tests you can do to see if it is the real thing. Ivory : Genuine, Fake, and Confusing

 

[mikej460]

They might look like Elephants, but I very much doubt that they are Ivory.

'Modern' tourist tat like that may have been sold as such, but seldom had the real thing.

That's a point, ivory normally yellows with age and they do look far too white to me. I doubt the owner wants to replace the top though and lying isn't right.

 

[Ttrees]

I know pianos with ivory keys are around a hundred years old or older,
Those are usually the ones going for free or next to nothing with nice walnut veneer
and something like satinwood inlays, with some sand shading and likely other features.
I believe these were made before concert pitch became a thing, and I'm told cannot be tuned so high, hence the value is very little.
All together, a bit fancier than that table, so I am guessing why some ebony or whatever isn't present if it were so.

What I've seen is quite noticeable yellowing throughout and has a sort of grain, much different in appearance to that, although I've never worked it, and reckon I am better off not wanting to know, to see if it might loose the yellowing.
With that said I've often seen the odd ivory trinket on the telly which appeared flat white,
and fossilized walrus ivory from Siberia to be so.

 

[XTiffy]

World's gone mad! Even should this turn out to be ivory, it is virtue signalling gone overboard. There is absolutely no way of knowing how the "ivory" was sourced. If they don't feel happy sell it or give it away. The modern sport of re-writing history completely escapes me, along with cancel culture. Sorry for a rant at this time of year. Totally agree in the modern banning of the ivory trade but the past can't be undone.

 

[Keith 66]

I too doubt that that is ivory, its too uniform white. In any case if you remove the "ivory" & replace it with plastic the table was still made that way, One hundred years down the line the elephant it may have come from certainly doesnt care.
Personally i would tell her to go elsewhere & get it done.

 

[JoeS]

Even if it is ivory - the elephant has long since passed and removing it doesn't help.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

My thought exactly. It's not going to bring an elephant back to life, ivory or not.

 

[D_W]

it should have a visible grain if it's elephant ivory. removing it from the table makes no real point to me.

It sort of follows the cites thing. "oh, if you have it, you're encouraging people to go get more illegally".

Not sure what it is, either, but I would check it with acetone to see if it's plain white celluloid. If it is, it'll get a little soft on the surface but if left alone, the acetone will dry and it will reharden.

 

[rafezetter]

I know you said you "weren't getting into it" but I have to agree with all the posts about this not being ivory. Even without the yellowing etc the table is very mundane, cheap woods have been used with not just "unremarkable" grain but outright "too bloody busy" grain - it's cheap tat made for tourists and clearly not an antique of the era when ivory was still being used and the chances of real expensive ivory being used would be slim to zero.

Having just had a look at the cross sections of ivory for elephant and rhino it has a VERY distinct circular spiral pattern that would be clearly visible, even under whatever cheap applied finish this has on top.

It's definitely (according to multiple google images) not ivory of elephant, rhino or walrus. Nor from the looks of it is it any form of horn, antler etc. I don't even think it's bone, which is used as an ivory substitute more often than people might realise, but again, no visible markers such as yellowing or grain. I think the visible scratch marks are from sanding.

My suggestion would be for the owner to take the table to a verified dealer who has experience of ivory or bone and have him check, as they have equipment to do that, and on the extreme possibility it does turn out to be ivory, she can then either ask the dealer to sell it or whatever.

Unless the table has extreme sentimental value or you're doing this for free (which would be a mistake) the cost of doing this, even at a modest hourly rate would be enough to buy a replacement antique to go in it's place. This is several days work at the minimum to replicate what is there to a point it doesn't look bodged and thus make the already low value table, worthless.

 

[Crocks]

Firstly, I would establish whether the elephants are actually ivory before removing anything.

Thanks I’m not getting into the ethics or the politics it’s undoubtedly ivory I know where it was sourced and it’s been cleaned, there’s grain if I zoom in. That was why there was a magnifying glass in the image I was making sure.

I too doubt that that is ivory, its too uniform white. In any case if you remove the "ivory" & replace it with plastic the table was still made that way, One hundred years down the line the elephant it may have come from certainly doesnt care.
Personally i would tell her to go elsewhere & get it done.

It’s family and I don’t care so I’ll do it. I asked just in case someone has a cunning solution

 

[Crocks]

I know you said you "weren't getting into it" but I have to agree with all the posts about this not being ivory. Even without the yellowing etc the table is very mundane, cheap woods have been used with not just "unremarkable" grain but outright "too bloody busy" grain - it's cheap tat made for tourists and clearly not an antique of the era when ivory was still being used and the chances of real expensive ivory being used would be slim to zero.

Having just had a look at the cross sections of ivory for elephant and rhino it has a VERY distinct circular spiral pattern that would be clearly visible, even under whatever cheap applied finish this has on top.

It's definitely (according to multiple google images) not ivory of elephant, rhino or walrus. Nor from the looks of it is it any form of horn, antler etc. I don't even think it's bone, which is used as an ivory substitute more often than people might realise, but again, no visible markers such as yellowing or grain. I think the visible scratch marks are from sanding.

My suggestion would be for the owner to take the table to a verified dealer who has experience of ivory or bone and have him check, as they have equipment to do that, and on the extreme possibility it does turn out to be ivory, she can then either ask the dealer to sell it or whatever.

Unless the table has extreme sentimental value or you're doing this for free (which would be a mistake) the cost of doing this, even at a modest hourly rate would be enough to buy a replacement antique to go in it's place. This is several days work at the minimum to replicate what is there to a point it doesn't look bodged and thus make the already low value table, worthless.

It’s family so I’ll do it. They taught chemistry in Kenya in the 60s which I am guessing is the source. Under the magnifying glass the grain of ivory can be seen. I really have no opinion on the ethics of it they feel uncomfortable so hey ho I’ll take it out.

 

[thetyreman]

what will you do with it once taken out?

 

[Argus]

what will you do with it once taken out?

A question, indeed.

Having established its authenticity, as with many artifacts, the Benin Bronzes, the Elgin Marbles etc., perhaps there is a case to be made to repatriate this item to Kenya, or the place it originated,
......... where Elephants roam unhindered beneath coconut trees.

 

[Crocks]

That’s what I’m looking for tracing

After you've removed it, you could infil with resin or a light coloured timber, BUT , i think to make it look good, you'll need to copy the detail on the elephants to avoid it looking like white blobs. Can you trace round them to create templates before you remove?

around them before removing them is a good idea. Thanks

They might be glued in with hide glue so you could try warming them with a dremel torch? Also if they soften then they're plastic.

But don't do anything until you have carefully traced each one and also taken close up photos..

Thanks that’s really helpful

 

[Crocks]

They might look like Elephants, but I very much doubt that they are Ivory.

'Modern' tourist tat like that may have been sold as such, but seldom had the real thing.

Bought back in the 50s/60s when they lived in Kenya also I’ve got my magnifying glass out with a guide to ivory identification so I’m pretty sure it’s ivory off cuts. Thanks