The State Of Furniture

[danst96]

Obviously us woodworkers are quite picky about furniture. However since I got more and more invested in woodworking and furniture making I have started to take more note of furniture from other sources.

We all know Ikea is junk and the price you pay, we shouldnt expect much more than the cardboard it is so I tend not to complain about them, i just avoid if i can. What I do have beef about though is seemingly "premium furniture" from companies like West Elm. For example, this bedside table was advertised at £369, was a mix of walnut veneered engineered wood and softwood and a little bit of solid walnut on the legs. The quality of the crafstmanship just does not live up to the price point IMO

Likewise Heals who admittedly make some lovely looking stuff and I know they work with small time woodworkers for some of their ranges but some of their main range furniture, like a smallish sideboard is priced around £3k but is largely made up of veneered wood. At that price, surely its not too much to expect solid wood? Or do I under estimate what one should charge for solid wood furniture?

 

[GarF]

Or do I under estimate what one should charge for solid wood furniture?

Probably. This always seems to be a sticky issue when amateurs and professionals discuss the topic. Also, as a consumer rather than a retailer I don't have much of an understanding of the margins and markup on items in shops.

Certainly the most shonky furniture in our house are a sideboard and coffee table we bought from John Lewis. Fairly attractive from a few feet away but the finish and joinery do not reward closer inspection. I've been threatening to replace them for years!
The last time I had time to kill in the furniture department at JL I was fascinated by the eyewatering prices on some frankly fugly pieces.

 

[danst96]

Thats what I have been saying, it seems that modern furniture, whether its dirt cheap ikea or more expensive apparently "premium" furniture, it seems that is all made to just look good in a picture or a website or catalog or whatever but as soon as you get close it is just terrible.

My grandparents have some amazing furniture which they got when they got married over 50 years ago and you can see it is something that can be handed down for generations. Compared to stuff now which looks ok on the shelf or website but does not stand up to even 2 or 3 years of use.

 

[Essex Barn Workshop]

I was recently gifted a 'solid oak' dining table, apparently bought for £700 from JL only a few years ago, so took it to the workshop to cut into hopefully usable planks.
The main body of the table is thin oak veneer on MDF. The stiles, rails and apron are solid wood, but short pieces glued together and heavily stained.

 

[marcros]

I disagree about ikea, it is very well designed and fit for purpose. it isnt fine furniture and doesn't claim to be.

 

[danst96]

I disagree about ikea, it is very well designed and fit for purpose. it isnt fine furniture and doesn't claim to be.

This is what i was trying to say, i dont expect anything from Ikea at the price point they sell at. I still dont buy it though because even though its cheap as chips i dont see the value in something that will only look good for a relatively short period of time. And in particular for Ikeas larger items, you try moving it from one room to another after its assembled it will resemble more of a banana afterwards. But as you say and i fully agree, its at a price point you cant argue or expect much more from.

My point i guess is more directed towards the likes of John Lewis, Heals, West Elm etc. who sell pieces of furniture at relatively high prices but its made to a low standard with poor quality materials. Heals being the worst offender in my opinion although their stuff does look pretty nice.

You can go on etsy and find some really nice hand made furniture which is made in a small workshop somewhere to a good standard.

 

[thetyreman]

nobody wants to pay high prices for solid wood furniture, everything is measured against ikea unfortunatley, which makes it nigh on impossible to sell quality furniture as an amateur for high prices, the john lewis stuff is still low end but they try their best to make it look expensive, they will be making a profit on it, and ikea make huge profits, it's all about greed and keeping the design council hipsters happy, people will then complain when you want to charge over £1000 for an heirloom quality piece of furniture that is designed to last over 100 years out of solid wood.

 

[Fitzroy]

My view. Over the last 40 years the average cost of mass produced stuff has dropped by a huge amount, driven by mass production in the far east, and globalisation of economies, supply routes etc. This has driven down what people see as an acceptable amount to spend on items. Additionally countries where high quality hand crafted furniture is made have seen a rise in wages and living costs, such that the most significant part of the manufacturing costs is wages rather than materials. These two factors result in a growing gap between what you need to pay for a piece of functional furniture (IKEA), and what you would need to pay for a high quality craftsman made piece. Fewer and fewer people are willing to bridge this gap which drives the economy down to the lowest common denominator, it's a race to the bottom.

Some very weak evidence for this. 1965 gplan wardrobe cost = £69, dressing table cost £29, average 1965 wage £936/yr. 2021 average wage is £29600, pro-rated the price would be wardrobe = £2100, and dresser £920. Equivalent Ikea price is £500 for the wardrobe and £250 for the dresser.

I also think that once you get into the rabbit hole of woodworking you see flaws in high-street furniture that you would never have noticed before. Glue lines that would not bother any normal person shout at you from across the room 'HEY LOOK AT ME'.

Fitz

 

[Spectric]

This is just a reflection on the modern world, it is more about image than what lies beneath and because society is in a very toxic materialistic state then nothing needs to last that long because people will buy something on a whim that will replace it in a short space of time. This is one of the contributory factors that impacts climate change, we no longer buy quality that will last for many years and the same applies to white goods, cars and most items because it is a throwaway world, at least in the west. If we are happy with furniture that is just veneered dust that has been bonded together then the next phase will be 3D printed stuff. When you next visit your local recycling centre take a look at how much "furniture" is in the so called wood bin, this is how we now treat our household contents, just there for that period in time.

 

[Spectric]

Some very weak evidence for this. 1965 gplan wardrobe cost = £69, dressing table cost £29, average 1965 wage £936/yr. 2021 average wage is £29600, pro-rated the price would be wardrobe = £2100, and dresser £920. Equivalent Ikea price is £500 for the wardrobe and £250 for the dresser.

These were the days when a married couple would start life with very little, credit and hire purchase were not around and they would slowly buy their furniture over time, because it was comparatively more expensive then it was appreciated and they kept it for longer. In our family I will always remember a huge solid table that had a cranking handing to fully extend and had legs like Gema collins.

 

[TRITON]

I disagree about ikea, it is very well designed and fit for purpose. it isnt fine furniture and doesn't claim to be.

I agree with this. The idea is the look and function of ikea furniture.

Take Mackintosh furniture for example.
You will pay gigantic sums of money for a mackintosh original, but the actual construction of it is quite poor, much of it was actually made in joinery workshops on a budget, with cheaper dowel construction the order of the day rather than proper jointing.

What Macintosh was all about was the look, and of it is was stark in relation to what was available at the time, more austere browns, whereas Mackintosh it was bright white,or stark blacks with applied form and decoration.

 

[Fitzroy]

This is just a reflection on the modern world, it is more about image than what lies beneath and because society is in a very toxic materialistic state then nothing needs to last that long because people will buy something on a whim that will replace it in a short space of time. This is one of the contributory factors that impacts climate change, we no longer buy quality that will last for many years and the same applies to white goods, cars and most items because it is a throwaway world, at least in the west. If we are happy with furniture that is just veneered dust that has been bonded together then the next phase will be 3D printed stuff. When you next visit your local recycling centre take a look at how much "furniture" is in the so called wood bin, this is how we now treat our household contents, just there for that period in time.

Heading away from furniture, but I disagree on cars. My observation, again poor evidence, is that car quality and reliability have increased considerably over the last 20 years. I frequently catch myself looking at a car and thinking, that's a nice car, then to spot an 0X/5X plate and realising it's 10+ years old and still looking good. My vaxhall astra in the late 90s was knackered and looking it, after 5+ years.

 

[danst96]

I also think that once you get into the rabbit hole of woodworking you see flaws in high-street furniture that you would never have noticed before. Glue lines that would not bother any normal person shout at you from across the room 'HEY LOOK AT ME'.

this is a very real thing, i largely didnt notice stuff before i was really down this rabbit hole of woodwork. Now I pick up on stuff like I didnt before. But not only that, it has made me appreciate well made quality items more. I dont claim to be an amazing craftsman and I notice many flaws in my own work which perhaps others wouldn't but once you start its hard to accept overpriced furniture built to a lower standard than you could achieve yourself.

I made these nighstands as my very first woodworking project, and while there are many elements which are not perfect, they cost me around £180 each in materials after making plenty of mistakes. The equivalent item from West Elm sells for double that for a more flawed piece which is mass produced and not solid wood. I just struggle to add it up. (first 2 pics are pre-finish)

 

[transatlantic]

I think the IKEA type flat pack stuff is generally fit for purpose, but it is only made to go togeather once. If you're moving, and need to take it apart and then assemble it again, you're probably going to have problems.

And to be honest, I think that is by design ...

 

[Fitzroy]

I made these nighstands as my very first woodworking project, and while there are many elements which are not perfect, they cost me around £180 each in materials after making plenty of mistakes. The equivalent item from West Elm sells for double that for a more flawed piece which is mass produced and not solid wood. I just struggle to add it up. (first 2 pics are pre-finish)

How many hours of work do you have in them? For me I'd estimate they'd take 40+ (design, wood sourcing and prep, joinery, finishing) so £1000 of labour minimum, then with tool depreciation, workshop costs, insurance etc etc. you need to sell them for £1500 for the pair to make money. But what would someone pay for them? I'd say the right punter may part with £500-600 for the pair, so you need to get your making time down to c. 10hrs for the pair. If you sold them as a regular and had a production system set up, jigs, workflow, made 10 at once you could reduce the time considerably and possibly hit this price point but it would be dull as dishwater living. The economics of good quality furniture sales to the general public don't seem to stack up whenever I think about them.

F.

 

[city17]

Another point is automation. Most furniture producers use these large computer controlled machines that do the cutting of panels, drilling of holes for dowels etc. automatically on a large scale. Even in an optimized production shop for solid wood joinery it's hard to get the same scale and level of automation, plus additional labor costs.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I grew up in an era when built to last was good - furniture, cars, houses, tools etc. Repair was the order of the day - darn socks, replace kettle elements, breakers yard for car spares etc.

In the 1980s work took me frequently to the Middle East. City blocks which had been built only a decade earlier funded by OPEC oil price increases in the 1970's were being demolished to make way for higher and better.

Preconceived notions of the benefits of longevity were challenged. I came to the conclusion that as time passes, needs change, and we need to react. The speed of change has accelerated in the last few decades.

What has this to do with furniture. 25 years old, one bed apartment. 40 year old three bed house and kids. 55 years old teenage kids and friends. 70 years old smaller and easy to maintain.

This creates different furniture and other needs over time We tend to move more frequently - rarely is a house a home for life, often a building we stay in for a period.

This is not unambiguously good or desirable - it is part of a consumer roundabout which will ultimately degrade the planet on which we live.

Behaviours which value short term over long term gratification seem a large part of the human condition. There are few societies which successfully postpone immediate material satisfaction in favour of long term security and contentment.

Personally I have a high regard for Ikea - producing affordable furniture which can be replaced every 5-15 years as requirements and style changes. We should find ways to do this as sustainably as possible as resistance may be futile!

 

[doctor Bob]

I love Ikea.

 

[danst96]

I love Ikea.

You are only the second person in my whole life I've heard say that. The other was a swede

 

[stuartpaul]

I love Ikea.

So do my wife and I. Some of the stuff is actually quite well made and robust for the pricepoint. Kitchen units are pretty good as well.