The price some people charge - a personal rant!

[Jelly]

What an entertaining thread, thanks.

Quite wrong about the wooden window thing. Jellys on the right track, quality wooden windows especially with features like powder coated ally facings are the way forward - problem is the price! hence the massive amount of upvc rubbish smothering the country.

Traditional windows with linseed oil paint are the way forwards. They last for 200+ years - given a bit of maintenance and a splash of linseed oil paint every now and then. Long term costs make them cheapest by far.
The demise of the timber window is down to modern paints which are all sh|t. And a few design issues too.

I would tend to agree with that, the 106 year old traditional windows in my parents house have held up much better than any modern ones i've seen.

Not so sure about the paints, certainly the factory applied coatings can outlast anything that has come before them; the problem coming when they do degrade.
However, I have friends in the coatings industry and they make no bones about it that the increasing controls on the chemicals used as feedstocks and solvents in normal (i.e. not applied as a process in a controled environment) paints are making for more expensive and less functional products.
The advantage of the linseed paints you describe is the polymerisation of the oil during 'drying', in this respect things are coming back round with developments in biopolymers (modified soybean oil is the one which sticks in my mind) which deliver the same effect but in a controled, repeatable manner and should produce a tougher coating than linseed does.

 

[G S Haydon]

Jacob, just to OP derail I took a look at the only windows we have used linseed oil paint on the other day. Wood was Accoya and it was still looking quite good. How much experience do you have with linseed oil and over what time frame, orientation to the sun, coastal locations? One of the limitations of linseed seems to be not being able to apply over old paint without removing the old paint first (obviously).
And, back in the day was it not lead based paint on old joinery rather than linseed oil paints?

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, just to OP derail I took a look at the only windows we have used linseed oil paint on the other day. Wood was Accoya and it was still looking quite good. How much experience do you have with linseed oil and over what time frame, orientation to the sun, coastal locations?

About 5 years so far. Have done all my external joinery - and there is a lot of it. My most testing* piece is a very exposed and vulnerable, old, south facing, ledge brace and battened, shed door. The linseed paint sticks like **** to a blanket and appears to be indestructible. Several applications of modern paint had failed on this door previousl

One of the limitations of linseed seems to be not being able to apply over old paint without removing the old paint first (obviously).

Not so. It sticks brilliantly to modern (oil based) paints and seems to hold it down in situations where you would expect it to fail. Primed first with oil on its own

And, back in the day was it not lead based paint on old joinery rather than linseed oil paints?

Like everybody I always assumed that it was the lead which gave old paint its enduring quality. A simple mistake, in fact it is the linseed oil - modern fillers, driers and pigments work fine and lead not needed.
Pricy by the tin but incredibly cheap in use - can only be applied thinly, dense coverage, easy to apply, needs no thinners, solvents - brushes are kept suspended in oil which can be then used as the next primer, so no waste at all, hands washable in soapy water, non toxic, no VOCs.
PS and zero carbon footprint.

*PS The shed door looks a bit of a mess at the moment but that's because I didn't shake the tin enough last time and it had settled out making a streaky effect. But it's still sticking really well. Might give it another coat this week.

PPS 5 years may not seem long but it is a long time in terms of modern paint. All the modern paint I've ever used (externally) has failed quite quickly. Except for aluminium primer which is very durable - but modern paint doesn't stick to it for long, but linseed oil paint does. I've tried a lot of alternative approaches, even reading the instructions on the tin!

 

[bugbear]

I note the difficulty of hand making objects to a price.

But surely an instance where the (actual, justified, unavoidable) cost of manufacture exceeds what the market place will bear is almost the definition of a failed product?

BugBear

 

[nanscombe]

But surely an instance where the (actual, justified, unavoidable) cost of manufacture exceeds what the market place will bear is almost the definition of a failed product?

Almost sounds a bit like British made goods vs foreign imports?

British made:
Good quality (subjective)
Limited quantity
Expensive to produce (higher cost of materials, wages etc)

Foreign made:
Reasonable quality (subjective)
Larger quantity
Inexpensive to produce (lower cost of materials, wages etc)

Not necessarily related to above but the thinking probably is ...
Why buy relatively expensive, good quality, British craftsman made furniture when Ikea will do?

 

[Jacob]

........
Why buy relatively expensive, good quality, British craftsman made furniture when Ikea will do?

Because in the absence of any other motivation, cheapest makes sense.
Marketing is about motivating people in two senses at least - first to simply persuade people that they want a thing (change their wants), second to play to the psychology of the buyer and tune in to their tastes and inclinations (exploit their existing wants).
IKEA does both very well, it isn't merely the cheapest. IKEA is particularly strong on design and price so they may win on both counts.

 

[woodbrains]

I note the difficulty of hand making objects to a price.

But surely an instance where the (actual, justified, unavoidable) cost of manufacture exceeds what the market place will bear is almost the definition of a failed product?

BugBear

Hello.

indeed, you are correct. But overheads in this country guarantee that production costs exceed what the market place will bear. unless you can reduce overheads, you will find it difficult to sell anything. large scale mass production reduces overheads, but that is not hand made. hand made objects will only ever be super luxury items which, as you will appreciate, is a very slim market.

this is why i mentioned windows, but the same is applied to plumbers and electricians. the only reason the market bears the prices for these trades, is because it is not viable to have Chinese imports to undercut the prices, So this sort of trade that relies on bespoke service and manual labour, is relatively safe (barring importing cheap labour rather than the products themselves...they can get us all ways). But things like kitchenalia, furniture, wood turnings, often can be imported/mass produced etc, so the market has an artificially low expectation of how much these things cost.

I can only say, the choice to buy or not to buy these things is down to the individual, but the excuse not to but should not be that the items are some sort of daylight robbery. They probably are far from it. I can understand why people do not want to spend this sort of money, but they should just be resigned to the fact that they might like the object, and perhaps desire it, but not be able to afford it. They should not be offended by the vendor, as if they are insulting the prospective buyer. In most cases these things are priced as low as the maker can bear, let alone the market.

The only antidote to the issue is for no one to make things by hand in this country, we can all work in factory sweatshops like the far East competitors. But this would be sad. So for those who cannot afford these things, ASPIRE but do not decry these objects and their makers. Perhaps have one or two of these objects, knowing you are adding to the variety of life.

Mike.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

Ah, my post it appears has some of you experts chuffing at the bit? and as some as quite happy to name call and use verbal profanity on a public forum while hiding behind a screen then perhaps you may want to PM me, I'll even provide you with my tpersonal elephone number. I 'll be quite happy to discuss it further. Let's see if there are any brave souls out there.

David

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Ah, my post it appears has some of you experts chuffing at the bit? and as some as quite happy to name call and use verbal profanity on a public forum while hiding behind a screen then perhaps you may want to PM me, I'll even provide you with my tpersonal elephone number. I 'll be quite happy to discuss it further. Let's see if there are any brave souls out there. David

Tongue in cheek , or serious comment David? You seem to be lurking "behind a screen" of your own using a pseudonym, unless David Bluekingfisher is your real name, which it might be of course. My real identity is easily found, and I don't think there's a need to send you a private message because I've nothing to say in private that I can't say in public. Slainte.

 

[RogerBoyle]

No Chuffing at the bit here either
I simply stated that I thought your post was a stupid thing to say ..
I too am easily found if you look in my profile

 

[powertools]

Personally I think that this thread should have been removed at the start.
The OP used a public forum to criticize a company who he has not and will never purchase from and assumes everybody else will agree with him.
There is far more to running a business in the UK than those who don't will ever understand.
I think that this companies web site and marketing techniques are superb and for any body making a living from there wood working skills there is a lot to learn from it.
Not all customers will buy from Ikea and you need to select the customers you wish to sell to.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Ethically, the thread probably should have been removed, but I think it has turned out to be very interesting and entertaining. At least the OP had the good sense not to keep harping on about a misapprehension when put straight.
Regarding the other poster here who obviously won't get the message, those brave enough, as he puts it, are those making things and earning a living at it ( or giving it their best shot) undeniably brave.
Mike.

 

[marcros]

No Chuffing at the bit here either
I simply stated that I thought your post was a stupid thing to say ..
I too am easily found if you look in my profile

+1. Showed a complete lack of understanding of a real business. I think that my 2 year old could have came up with a better thought out comment.

 

[Reggie]

I think it's a fine thread, people are allowed to complain if they like, just as anyone else is free to comment on complaints

There are clearly a lot of factors that go to make up one of these boards but they've been arbitrarily justified by x,y,z factors like staff costs, website costs, tooling etc. levels of sales, which are all guesses (I accept that some might be reasonable guesses) so you can see why people might be sceptical over the prices.

Interestingly, there are a few chinese product posts on this forum and I've noticed that when the boot is on the other foot, the chinese products get a sound beating because of their quality vs price which is in stark contrast to this thread which amounts to much of the same thing.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I wasn't and neither was anyone putting Chinese and Far Eastern products down, just stating that their overheads are much lower than in this country. Some Chinese products are very good indeed, but only cheap because of labour costs, low overheads etc. look at a Quiancheng planes Versus a Clifton. Clifton is not robbing us, they simply cannot make the tools for as little as the Chinese. Should we stop buying Clifton products? We might think a little more about the working conditions of the Chinese, who obviously do not enjoy this countries health and safety laws, working conditions, statutory holidays, etc, another cost business here have to bear and reflect in the prices of their products. If everything were equal, the Chinese stuff would be dearer possibly, as they have to travel thousands of miles to get here. It may be exploitative to buy these things, but out of sight out of mind.

Mike.

 

[Reggie]

Hi, I wasn't suggesting anyone in this thread had put chinese products down, just that there are threads on this forum where chinese products have been

It's not a slight at anyone at all, it really was just interesting to note that chinese products get complaints levelled at them over quality vs price and this thread is based on price vs quality, I didn't see anyone saying that the 'chinese tat' thread should've been closed but the main theme of both is price, quality and what people are willing to accept and the different views that surround them.

 

[powertools]

As my Grand kids would say in modern speak "wat ever"
I don't think that it is fair to criticise a product or company until you have purchased from them and been let down.

 

[Chippyjoe]

Take a chill pill people, lock the thread, and lets move on ffs.

 

[joiner_sim]

This thread has been entertaining! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Jacob]

....Ethically, the thread probably should have been removed, but I think it has turned out to be very interesting and entertaining. ...

Moralising again!
It has often been the price of things in the past which have sparked off revolutions, but more likely to be the price of bread itself, not bread boards. As a rule nobody gives a f||ck about the price of breadboards - quite rightly IMHO.