Kalimna
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Pete - a liberal application of honey upon the slates prior to pea-usage would have resolved the issue of unexpected slippage.
Cheersm
Adam
Cheersm
Adam
The price some people charge - a personal rant!
- Thread starter Glynne
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I like my peas with honey...
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Bugbear has a valid point about pricing objects from the buyers perspective. But the problem is, NOTHING can be hand made for the price that most want to pay. The only reason people buy wooden windows, for instance, is because they are compelled to by conservation orders or grade listings, ok, there will be a few who have the good taste to have wooden window frames if the architecture needs it, but in the main, people only buy new wooden windows under duress. If they could get away with cheaper alternatives, they would. Mass produced products are not available, so they have to put up and shut up. It is the same with everything that can be made. Tables hold plates 30 inches from the floor, why buy a bespoke table when oak furniture land have them for £199 .99. I cannot make a thing, even low grade for that. My tables only hold the plates 30 inches from the floor also. The hand made thing is a concept as much as anything. Ok my tables would be nicer than mass produced, but serve the same purpose. If having hand made is important to the buyer ( and the luxury of it being nicer, whatever that means) then they might pay the extra. But most people ( even those that can afford the extra and even desire nicer) will still only value the object for its function.
it is all the things that are not seen that make craftsman made objects too high priced. I once quoted for a metamorphic child's cot, in walnut. I actually quoted too low in order to get the job, as it was a bit of a lean time. The customer came back to me asking what wood could I make it out of to make it cheaper? The customer was a barrister, so not short of cash. This shows a couple of things IMO. People see the materials the product is made from as the main expense. It may well be for mass produced objects, but it is almost inconsequential for hand made things. I think my reply to this customer was that beech was cheaper by 100 quid, but staining it and polishing to look like walnut would take me an extra days work, so would cost more in the long run.
The other thing is, the use the object is put to has perceived value. A child's sleeping arrangements were not a high value to this customer, as chopping boards are not to some here. But this doesn't effect the process in making the object and therefore its cost. A dining table looks bigger and more substantial than a chair. But it will take as long to make a chair as a table, in many cases. Chairs are perceived as less valuable than tables, and people think they should be less expensive.. A child's cot is probably valued less by people than either of these, but probably the most long winded to make. People on these forums should help spread the knowledge about hand crafted things, rather than have rants at the price we often need to charge, just to earn a modest living.
Incidentally, to avoid confusion, I am no longer a professional maker, and I hope this didn't sound like a rant of my own.
Mike.
Bugbear has a valid point about pricing objects from the buyers perspective. But the problem is, NOTHING can be hand made for the price that most want to pay. The only reason people buy wooden windows, for instance, is because they are compelled to by conservation orders or grade listings, ok, there will be a few who have the good taste to have wooden window frames if the architecture needs it, but in the main, people only buy new wooden windows under duress. If they could get away with cheaper alternatives, they would. Mass produced products are not available, so they have to put up and shut up. It is the same with everything that can be made. Tables hold plates 30 inches from the floor, why buy a bespoke table when oak furniture land have them for £199 .99. I cannot make a thing, even low grade for that. My tables only hold the plates 30 inches from the floor also. The hand made thing is a concept as much as anything. Ok my tables would be nicer than mass produced, but serve the same purpose. If having hand made is important to the buyer ( and the luxury of it being nicer, whatever that means) then they might pay the extra. But most people ( even those that can afford the extra and even desire nicer) will still only value the object for its function.
it is all the things that are not seen that make craftsman made objects too high priced. I once quoted for a metamorphic child's cot, in walnut. I actually quoted too low in order to get the job, as it was a bit of a lean time. The customer came back to me asking what wood could I make it out of to make it cheaper? The customer was a barrister, so not short of cash. This shows a couple of things IMO. People see the materials the product is made from as the main expense. It may well be for mass produced objects, but it is almost inconsequential for hand made things. I think my reply to this customer was that beech was cheaper by 100 quid, but staining it and polishing to look like walnut would take me an extra days work, so would cost more in the long run.
The other thing is, the use the object is put to has perceived value. A child's sleeping arrangements were not a high value to this customer, as chopping boards are not to some here. But this doesn't effect the process in making the object and therefore its cost. A dining table looks bigger and more substantial than a chair. But it will take as long to make a chair as a table, in many cases. Chairs are perceived as less valuable than tables, and people think they should be less expensive.. A child's cot is probably valued less by people than either of these, but probably the most long winded to make. People on these forums should help spread the knowledge about hand crafted things, rather than have rants at the price we often need to charge, just to earn a modest living.
Incidentally, to avoid confusion, I am no longer a professional maker, and I hope this didn't sound like a rant of my own.
Mike.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I think most people buying most things are buying an idea.woodbrains":2m0kd6hc said:
After all who needs a table when you can get an old door and some boxes from a skip like what I've got? Who needs clothes when you can get sacks and bin bags free?
They think they are buying something "better" when they trundle off to IKEA. Fools!
Consumerism is a whole area of academic study - particularly French philosophy - Baudrillard and other social theorists etc. and all sorts of complicated ideas are going on in buyers' minds at every economic level. This includes you and me, however rational (or tasteful) we think we are!
woodbrains
Established Member
Jacob":2zijy4x3 said:
Yes, absolutely.
Mike.
powertools
Established Member
Let me try and put a different perspective on this.
For father's day my son took me to a high end steak restaurant in London a bit posh for me but that is what he wanted to do and I enjoyed the experience.
After we had been sat at our table and served the drinks a guy turns up with one of those display platters with 5 different cuts of steak on it to show what we could order.
The average price of each steak was £35 so the price of the platter was less than half the selling price of the 5 steaks.
Presentation was the all important thing and I guess that the bloke who owned the place had no interest in the cost of the platter as he was selling maybe 150 £35 steaks a day off it.
For father's day my son took me to a high end steak restaurant in London a bit posh for me but that is what he wanted to do and I enjoyed the experience.
After we had been sat at our table and served the drinks a guy turns up with one of those display platters with 5 different cuts of steak on it to show what we could order.
The average price of each steak was £35 so the price of the platter was less than half the selling price of the 5 steaks.
Presentation was the all important thing and I guess that the bloke who owned the place had no interest in the cost of the platter as he was selling maybe 150 £35 steaks a day off it.
I actually do expect that... If a product is described as being made in a certain way, I expect that the manufacture is actually doing it in that way, anything else is utterly dishonest and runs close to the wind with the 'as described' portion of the trade descriptions act. (Doubly so if the process of manufacture is the USP of the product).phil.p":vchrccoh said:
woodbrains":vchrccoh said:
You're wrong on at least one, maybe both counts there, remembering that I used to work for a very large manufacturer of wooden windows*...
You can buy mass-produced wooden windows, in both standard and bespoke sizes... We had 4 styles of casement and 3 of sliding sash and a proprietary high efficiency low noise design; I think we were doing about 700-1000 fully finished units a week (down from about 7000 of 2 styles in 1990). Indeed BSI published the latest version of BS 644 "Fully finished factory-assembled windows" in 2009 and there are 17 other members of the wood windows alliance... all making the same kinds of products, so it certainly can't be as dire a situation as you described.
Most of our custom was from major house builders developing up-market estates (and not just in conservation areas either) and commercial property owners who were on a sustainability kick... very few private purchasers (generally buying sliding sash); from that It's clear to see that people don't just go "I want wooden windows" in any house (and at 1.5 times the price of UPVC I can see why), but also that it is actually increasingly considered to be desirable... With the right marketing campaign and a full hands-off service like the major UPVC sellers, I think many more private individuals would choose modern wooden windows.
*Worthy of note, the group liquidated it's UPVC manufacturing venture in the late-90's as the profit margin was too low to make it a worthwhile asset for further investment and divested it's in-house glass plant shortly afterwards...
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Jelly, what constitutes "hand made"? The hand on the circular saw? The finger on the speed dial of the router? I, too, would like to believe that things advertised as "hand made" were actually made by hand, but I'm too experienced, too smart and too old.
No skills
Established Member
What an entertaining thread, thanks.
Quite wrong about the wooden window thing. Jellys on the right track, quality wooden windows especially with features like powder coated ally facings are the way forward - problem is the price! hence the massive amount of upvc crap smothering the country.
Quite wrong about the wooden window thing. Jellys on the right track, quality wooden windows especially with features like powder coated ally facings are the way forward - problem is the price! hence the massive amount of upvc crap smothering the country.
Bluekingfisher
Established Member
It appear the professional trades/craftsman cpnsider them value for money wihile the customer amongst us think they are overpriced?
If you buy them you are only encouraging them.
I wish I was earning £74.50 an hour Oh of course I forgot the overheads (a sheet of sandpaper £0.25? a dash of oil £04.00, an the offcut of waney edge £20 a truck load. Nice work if you can get it.
If you buy them you are only encouraging them.
I wish I was earning £74.50 an hour Oh of course I forgot the overheads (a sheet of sandpaper £0.25? a dash of oil £04.00, an the offcut of waney edge £20 a truck load. Nice work if you can get it.
woodbrains
Established Member
No skills":zpmqgogb said:
Isn't that what I said, people buy rubbish because of price. The minute someone undercuts, everybody moves to the lowest common denominator. Also, you cannot buy mass produced wooden windows for my house, they are all different sizes and shapes and work differently to the ones a factory can make dor me. Hence builders who mass produce houses can order the mass produced windows in bulk. I would have to have mine made to order, which is bespoke, not mass produced. The point I am making is, hand made things are expensive and cannot be less so. Time dictates the cost of things, more than any single component of the making, followed by overheads, then equipment, marketing, transportation costs and probably lastly, the cost of materials. Customers think ( because almost everything they own is mass produced, and in mass production material cost and transport is most significant) that materials dictate the price over and above everything. The customers perception is totally contradictory to the facts. Something made of soft wood is less than half the price of something in hardwood they might think. but construction time, workshop overheads etc. are the same and the materials would be mere pounds cheaper. They also do not realise the true extent of the time it takes to do something, nor value the skill of the maker. Yet it is only the skill of the maker and the time and care he or she takes that is actually worth anything. The hundred pound lump of wood is still one hundred pounds of wood when it is a table.
Mike.
powertools
Established Member
Bluekingfisher":c02h6e2o said:
You also forgot the costs of selling them that can be twice the manufacturing costs and the 20% VAT.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Traditional windows with linseed oil paint are the way forwards. They last for 200+ years - given a bit of maintenance and a splash of linseed oil paint every now and then. Long term costs make them cheapest by far.No skills":3se7vb4p said:
The demise of the timber window is down to modern paints which are all sh|t. And a few design issues too.
RogerBoyle
Established Member
Bluekingfisher":75bhy695 said:
What a very stupid reply =D> =D>
What about his overheads such as premises ,electricity,Gas, Phones , Vehicles , Several various insurances ,Staff , Advertising, Fees for events just to name a few ...
WillRiseley
Established Member
I wish I could earn anything. cant even sell my wood turnings for the price of the materials as people just dont want to buy stuff. think its shop hawking for me soon 
But if somethigns 'handmade' then that surely implies some effort and hard work has gone into it using hand tools and elbow grease.
But if somethigns 'handmade' then that surely implies some effort and hard work has gone into it using hand tools and elbow grease.
woodbrains
Established Member
Bluekingfisher":3sj38wqf said:
Hello,
If you can get waney edged cherry for 20 pounds a truck load, kindly send it to me and I will personally give you fifty.
The last time I bought waney edged English cherry, it was 48 pounds a cube an that wasn't recently.
Out of that 74 pounds and hour you would have to deduct rent for workshop, counsil tax, water rates, electricity, depreciation of toolsand equipment, insurance, transport ( the lorry for the wood doesn't come for free either) advertising telephone bill, the price of the stall at the event etc etc. 74 pounds per hour might yeald 10 -12. If your self employed, less if you are a workshop employee. And then you don't sell enough to cover the price of your pitch every once in a while. If anyone thinks there is money in this career, you are dreaming, it is treacherous. It really is.
Mike.
Mike.
custard
Established Member
Interesting photo of drawknife skills here,
http://www.naturallycreated.co.uk/our-c ... ezp-4.html
Is this a warning illustration of how the incorrect use of a drawknife can tear out a huge divot on the edge of the workpiece?
It's funny except charlatan nonsense like this erodes respect for craftsmanship; enough of this manifest deception and eventually people will associate any claim of handwork with snake oil salesmen.
http://www.naturallycreated.co.uk/our-c ... ezp-4.html
Is this a warning illustration of how the incorrect use of a drawknife can tear out a huge divot on the edge of the workpiece?
It's funny except charlatan nonsense like this erodes respect for craftsmanship; enough of this manifest deception and eventually people will associate any claim of handwork with snake oil salesmen.
Sgian Dubh
Established Member
Your thorough and profound ignorance about expenses related to crafting wood and selling the product for a living is the only thing I perceived as shining brightly in your comments Bluekingfisher ... unless you posted with your tongue firmly in your cheek, which surely has to be considered a possibility with your comments perhaps being intentionally provocative. Slainte.Bluekingfisher":140hzvkk said:
doctor Bob
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Bluekingfisher":3j8uoctl said:
I have a cabinet making business, each month I have overheads of £8000 plus wages for 7 people each month. This does not include any materials or hardware.
I believe the technical term for your comment is Bolloxs.
rafezetter
Troll Hunter
Sheffield Tony":hui29nlk said:
Lol I agree - michelin star or not things like wooden or slate servers are the wrong end - if I'm paying £50 a plate I want finest bone china, not a roof tile! Slate is also porous so exactly how sterile is it?
I'd say though Tony that all that work on your board would justify top end, but those slabs haven't had a great deal of work in comparison, and I'd expect the seller to know everything about them including the finish, the fact he didn't and had to point to a sticker rather than tell direct what the wood was shows a lack of commitment to quality the pricetag demands. If I were there I'd have asked innocently if he could tell me the details of what he was selling. (and yes I have lots of experience of this situation).
