The language is mutating (and always has done)

[stuart little]

So, it gets on his wick, like.

Damn I forgot to add 'like', like.

 

[Geoff_S]

So, damn I forgot to add “like” like, innit.

 

[stuart little]

So, damn I forgot to add “like” like, innit awesome!

 

[JimJay]

One of the benefits of empire is that English is the most widely spoken language internationally, although Mandarin (I understand) is the language spoken by most people.

This is probably why the English put so little effort into learning a foreign language - in business, trade, tourism they have little need so to do. The default - if Johnny Foreigner doesn't understand, shout louder and more slowly on the arrogant basis it is they who are clearly deficient.

Recent advice was that learning Mandarin was the key to career success. However, I suspect the Chinese in pursuit of world domination are far more willing to learn English than encourage the rest of the world to learn their mother tongue.

A lot of Chinese people are interested in learning English as an intellectual exercise as well as a means of communication; I teach a large class of them over the internet, including lecturers of English in a number of Chinese universities. To be honest, the level of these university teachers' English is surprisingly low, as many of them are themselves prepared to admit. However, I do bolster their spirits with stories, and examples, of the pretty poor level of English spoken, and written, by many native speakers these days. That's not a dig at anyone here but merely a reflection of how standards have fallen over the past several decades.

 

[Dionysios]

@JimJay, Actually in Contemporary Greek is 'metro' and 'theatro' (even the oldest live language changes, that's why it's live) and the spelling is essentially the same with the english words. Though with that example I was pointing out the rationalization that the Americans try to imply between spelling and pronounciation and not the similarity with the Greek spelling.

As for your second post, I will totally agree with you about the fallen standards. Unfortunately the dismissal of reading as a way to learn, improve your language skills and broaden your mind, along with the intrusion of internet and social media has led to the creation of people who can barely speak and write correctly their native language. Even worse I'm afraid that after a while all these linguistic atrocities that we hear or read will be regarded as the correct use of the language.

P.S.: Dionysios is my actual name

 

[gregmcateer]

P.S.: Dionysios is my actual name

Wow! You grape crusher, you!

 

[Spectric]

Has anyone actually noticed that the human race is also mutating and it is not just our language ?

 

[JimJay]

@JimJay, Actually in Contemporary Greek is 'metro' and 'theatro' (even the oldest live language changes, that's why it's live) and the spelling is essentially the same with the english words. Though with that example I was pointing out the rationalization that the Americans try to imply between spelling and pronounciation and not the similarity with the Greek spelling.

As for your second post, I will totally agree with you about the fallen standards. Unfortunately the dismissal of reading as a way to learn, improve your language skills and broaden your mind, along with the intrusion of internet and social media has led to the creation of people who can barely speak and write correctly their native language. Even worse I'm afraid that after a while all these linguistic atrocities that we hear or read will be regarded as the correct use of the language.

P.S.: Dionysios is my actual name

That's true enough, but the etymology of "theatre" and "metre" long predates Demotiki, not to mention that "meter" (the US spelling of the measure and the instrument used to measure) all come from the same Ancient Greek root, "μέτρον", so the mention of "Contemporary Greek" is a red herring.

PS Jim is one of my names but I only ever used it when I went to boarding school in England - having a "poncy foreign" name like Kostas made you a target for ragging, even if you were big for your age. And if we want to talk about "falling standards", I'd suggest that one of the best examples of that is the phasing out of Katharevousa....

 

[JimJay]

Has anyone actually noticed that the human race is also mutating and it is not just our language ?

"Mutating" is definitely the right word - it's so much more diplomatic than "dumbing-down"

 

[MARK.B.]

Has anyone actually noticed that the human race is also mutating and it is not just our language ?

A spare hand or two could actually come in handy with a tricky glue up

 

[Phil Pascoe]

However, I do bolster their spirits with stories, and examples, of the pretty poor level of English spoken, and written, by many native speakers these days. That's not a dig at anyone here but merely a reflection of how standards have fallen over the past several decades.

There was a letter in The Times some years ago from a chap whose business was translations, he didn't say in which sphere only that for legal reasons his work had to be very precise. For this reason he employed predominantly Polish and Hungarian English language graduates rather than English ones.

In my first term of Latin in 1965 the master made us learn English grammar for the whole first term, as he maintained that as English was no longer taught properly we wouldn't be able to understand the grammar of a foreign language when we didn't know our own.

 

[JimJay]

There was a letter in The Times some years ago from a chap whose business was translations, he didn't say in which sphere only that for legal reasons his work had to be very precise. For this reason he employed predominantly Polish and Hungarian English language graduates rather than English ones.

In my first term of Latin in 1965 the master made us learn English grammar for the whole first term, as he maintained that as English was no longer taught properly we wouldn't be able to understand the grammar of a foreign language when we didn't know our own.

He was right - and he'd be even more so if he's still clinging onto his perch now; the only difference today is that so many people are proud of knowing nothing but still demand that their unwarranted self-esteem is respected. As I hinted at previously, the first thing I have to get through to my students is that just because the rubbish they encounter on the internet comes from a native speaker is no guarantee that it's grammatical, correctly spelled or even coherent - and I have to disabuse them of the notion that every English word is preceded by "f*cking"..

I should perhaps add that my Latin master also taught Ancient Greek: it's bad enough how Brits massacre Ancient Greek pronunciation (as taught in Greece) but when a broad Scots accent is thrown in for good measure it's rather difficult to keep a straight face.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Both my Latin masters also taught Greek. I had the option of Greek, but took German instead - I have long regretted it. Accents? I was taught French by a Corsican and German by an Englishman who'd lived for many years in Bavaria.

 

[JimJay]

Both my Latin masters also taught Greek. I had the option of Greek, but took German instead - I have long regretted it. Accents? I was taught French by a Corsican and German by an Englishman who'd lived for many years in Bavaria.

I'd say that you're more likely to bump into someone who speaks German than Ancient Greek, that said my Scottish Ancient Greek teacher used to lecture on the Swan Hellenic cruises and one year found that a fellow-lecturer was a Greek Orthodox priest. He decided to strike up a conversation and, since he didn't speak Modern Greek, launched into Ancient Greek; unfortunately the British pronunciation of the language, coupled with the accent, totally defeated the priest and they ended up conversing in Latin.
As for other languages, we spoke Greek, English and French at home and I lived in Germany for a number of years; these days I live in Bulgaria, so perforce I speak Bulgarian as my in-laws don't speak any other language.

 

[Kittyhawk]

As for other languages, we spoke Greek, English and French at home and I lived in Germany for a number of years; these days I live in Bulgaria, so perforce I speak Bulgarian as my in-laws don't speak any other language.

A true polyglot.
I admire and am envious of your linguistic abilities.

 

[JimJay]

A true polyglot.
I admire and am envious of your linguistic abilities.

Don't be - I'm just lucky that I was started on that path when I was very young. Now I'm (a lot) older it's both tougher going when faced with a new language and very clear to me that my memory isn't what it used to be.

In addition, finding that you're reasonably good at something means that there's a temptation not to try other things which you may find heavier going.

 

[Fergie 307]

So, like, it really, like, gets on his wick, innit.

 

[Suffolk Brian]

@JimJay, Actually in Contemporary Greek is 'metro' and 'theatro' (even the oldest live language changes, that's why it's live) and the spelling is essentially the same with the english words. Though with that example I was pointing out the rationalization that the Americans try to imply between spelling and pronounciation and not the similarity with the Greek spelling.

As for your second post, I will totally agree with you about the fallen standards. Unfortunately the dismissal of reading as a way to learn, improve your language skills and broaden your mind, along with the intrusion of internet and social media has led to the creation of people who can barely speak and write correctly their native language. Even worse I'm afraid that after a while all these linguistic atrocities that we hear or read will be regarded as the correct use of the language.

P.S.: Dionysios is my actual name

I completely agree. (I had the fortune/misfortune to go to a traditional grammar school, for my sins.)
One thing I really get wound up by is the fashion to add a “k” to the end of words, I.e. somethingk. Maybe delete the “g“ according to taste? I have even heard it said quite frequently on the BBC.

 

[Fergie 307]

A lot of Chinese people are interested in learning English as an intellectual exercise as well as a means of communication; I teach a large class of them over the internet, including lecturers of English in a number of Chinese universities. To be honest, the level of these university teachers' English is surprisingly low, as many of them are themselves prepared to admit. However, I do bolster their spirits with stories, and examples, of the pretty poor level of English spoken, and written, by many native speakers these days. That's not a dig at anyone here but merely a reflection of how standards have fallen over the past several decades.

I have known the owners of our local Chinese takeaway for over thirty years, a charming couple who have never lost their accent. She is always telling me " you learn Chinese, very easy". I have always taken the view that it was probably not very easy atall. We now have agreed that when I retire she is going to see if she can teach me. A process I suspect she will probably find more frustrating than I will. Their daughter is currently at Oxford, but works the counter in the shop when she is at home. She speaks the most frightfully posh 1940' s BBC newscaster English, certainly puts me to shame. Very funny when she has to give some instruction to the folk in the kitchen and let's go with a torrent of machine gun speed Chinese through the hatch, before switching seamlessly back again.

 

[stuart little]

A lot of Chinese people are interested in learning English as an intellectual exercise as well as a means of communication; I teach a large class of them over the internet, including lecturers of English in a number of Chinese universities. To be honest, the level of these university teachers' English is surprisingly low, as many of them are themselves prepared to admit. However, I do bolster their spirits with stories, and examples, of the pretty poor level of English spoken, and written, by many native speakers these days. That's not a dig at anyone here but merely a reflection of how standards have fallen over the past several decades.

Try reading a book (novel) written, say in pre WW1, & compare with present ones, to see how our language has changed - even disregarding the 'modern' verbs & pronouns now so common (in more ways than one!)