The language is mutating (and always has done)

[Marcusthehat]

Deal, but pronounced more like "dale" was what my first boss, (who was a traditional old school time served joiner, who started with The Londonderry Corporation, and claimed to remember pushing a handcart with his tools and timber through the streets to go work on the housing stock, and he would now be well into his 90's) called otherwise unspecified softwood/whitewood/cheap joinery wood.

 

[rogxwhit]

My understanding is that deal was originally a commercial term for a size of board, and later a certain quantity of wood, but the term came to describe the wood itself - I remember 'white deal' and 'red deal' being used for spruce and pine.

 

[Adam W.]

Deal was generally imported sawn timber from the Baltic states and it's a very old term. I'll try to dig out some of the history on it later on in the week once everything has calmed down.

Here's an article from Sven-Erik Åström about it.......

 

[Fergie 307]

Just to put my pet irritation into the pot. Why do people start a sentence with "so"? It gets on my wick

Or "like" as some sort of punctuation.

 

[Noel]

Please, back to English language etc.

 

[rogxwhit]

But you are either too obtuse or just plain rude

Bloody Northerners with their septic tanks ...

 

[Kittyhawk]

Why? That seems to me a rather curious comment. (Incidentally, I've been to NZ twice - lovely Country.)

Travel, as they say, broadens the mind and its true. I didn't know how much I didn't know until I saw NZ disappearing astern of the ship I had just signed onto. In my seafaring career I've been to Arkangel in the north and Tristan de Cunha in the south and most places inbetween and the totally foreign places were the best.
I'm glad that you enjoyed your visits to NZ but both English and Kiwis are cut from the same cloth and I note that when NZers go on their winter vacation it's to Oz, Fiji or Tonga - places full of other kiwis and where English is the predominant language. Nice, cozy and safe. They won't go to New Caledonia which is far more beautiful because its full of foreigners who talk funny. And aren't the English the same? Ibiza, Majorka..?
Well everybody knows the French are grumpy, short tempered and unhelpful, right?
Up until covid came along and upset the applecart I owned a canal boat based in Nancy and each year wife and I would spend 5 months on board cruising the French canals.
In our experience and also that of all other foreign canallers, if you make even the most token efforts with the language and customs the French will open up to you and you will find them the most delightful and obliging people you can ever wish to meet.
And the same for the Germans (the southern ones at least ), the Austrians, Swiss, Dutch, Japanese, Taiwanese, Brazilians.... the only people I've ever found to be a bit dour are the Belgians, a shame really because I'm half a one.
So I think it is a bit sad that you have rejected France as a place worth visiting because it is, if only for the reason that 10 euros will get you a damn fine burgundy.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

For the same money I'd rather drink Argentinian, Australian, Chilean, South African ...
NZ pinot noirs are wonderful, but a bit light for me. We had a guided tour by the M.D. of what was Selak's (Nobilo), we had a trade introduction. Some of their whites were stunning - a well qualified French sommelier I worked with took a label home as he said no one at home would believe how good it was - he thought it was a Grand Cru Sauternes. (About NZ$25 a half bottle, 25 years ago.)

 

[Fergie 307]

Travel, as they say, broadens the mind and its true. I didn't know how much I didn't know until I saw NZ disappearing astern of the ship I had just signed onto. In my seafaring career I've been to Arkangel in the north and Tristan de Cunha in the south and most places inbetween and the totally foreign places were the best.
I'm glad that you enjoyed your visits to NZ but both English and Kiwis are cut from the same cloth and I note that when NZers go on their winter vacation it's to Oz, Fiji or Tonga - places full of other kiwis and where English is the predominant language. Nice, cozy and safe. They won't go to New Caledonia which is far more beautiful because its full of foreigners who talk funny. And aren't the English the same? Ibiza, Majorka..?
Well everybody knows the French are grumpy, short tempered and unhelpful, right?
Up until covid came along and upset the applecart I owned a canal boat based in Nancy and each year wife and I would spend 5 months on board cruising the French canals.
In our experience and also that of all other foreign canallers, if you make even the most token efforts with the language and customs the French will open up to you and you will find them the most delightful and obliging people you can ever wish to meet.
And the same for the Germans (the southern ones at least ), the Austrians, Swiss, Dutch, Japanese, Taiwanese, Brazilians.... the only people I've ever found to be a bit dour are the Belgians, a shame really because I'm half a one.
So I think it is a bit sad that you have rejected France as a place worth visiting because it is, if only for the reason that 10 euros will get you a damn fine burgundy.

I think its mostly just laziness, certainly in my case im sorry to say. When most places have people who speak English why take the trouble to learn their languages. But you are quite correct about making an effort. The boss and I really enjoy getting a bit off the beaten track. In rural France or Spain you will find charming places but need to at least try and speak the language if you are to be accepted. We both have a sort of pidgin French and Spanish. Not enough to have a proper conversation, but enough to get by. I find my understanding of written or spoken French far exceeds my ability to speak it. Spanish less so, mainly owing to the machine gun speed of most Spanish speakers, I cant keep up. My mother was one of those people who found it very easy and spoke French and Italian fluently. She could also hold a passable conversation in German or Polish. Always amazed me as a child that after only a few days in a country she would already have picked up quite a lot. Sadly I have not inherited that particular talent. Once I retire we will hopefully have more time to travel, and will have to buck our ideas up and learn more.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

One of the benefits of empire is that English is the most widely spoken language internationally, although Mandarin (I understand) is the language spoken by most people.

This is probably why the English put so little effort into learning a foreign language - in business, trade, tourism they have little need so to do. The default - if Johnny Foreigner doesn't understand, shout louder and more slowly on the arrogant basis it is they who are clearly deficient.

Recent advice was that learning Mandarin was the key to career success. However, I suspect the Chinese in pursuit of world domination are far more willing to learn English than encourage the rest of the world to learn their mother tongue.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I believe Mandarin is the language most spoken as a first language, English the most spoken over all. I suspect reasons why some Countries' populations tend to speak second languages are two fold, 1/ because often the native language is very much a minority one, and 2/ they have borders with Countries with different languages so have a natural interchange, both of which are not applicable to us.

 

[Dionysios]

I’ve read all the posts in the thread (I think) and I would like to add my two cents (or maybe pennies?) in the conversation.

To begin with, the mutation of a language is one thing, the misuse of a language is another.

In regards of mutation:

1. A language is a live thing and it changes through the ages. As time passes it will evolve to cover the contemporary communication needs and as a result new words will appear and older words might be forgotten.

2. English is still quite a primitive language and it will go through many changes, more than other older languages at least.

3. The Americans, being a population of people with many different linguistic backgrounds, are trying to rationalise the relationship between pronunciation and spelling. For example meter/metre, theater/theatre. These words are pronounced the same both in US and Britain but the British still keep the Greek spelling.

4. Since the American English are more widespread through the movies, TV series etc. some of the changes they carry will inevitably prevail which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

In regards of misuse:

The main issue when people are not able to use correctly their native language is lack of reading.

And when I say reading I mean books or well written essays in news papers or magazines and not posts in the social media. Unfortunately according to a recent article of The Guardian one in five children in the UK doesn’t own a book.

This results to people who are just trying to reproduce a sound as they've heard it, which is not always correct, without having seen it written on paper. Hence I hear many people saying drawring (drawing), sawring (sawing), free (three), brought (bought), let alone what happens when they are trying to write something.

Reading good books will not only make you appreciate the beauty of a language, but it will also improve your own way to use the language and you will be less vulnerable to the linguistic absurdities that are widespread through the internet. Books will expand your knowledge as well, broaden your mind and enhance your critical thinking, but this a topic for a different thread.

 

[thetyreman]

Doesn't the rest of the UK have a say in that - or is linguistic imperialism okay in some circumstances?

I don't have a clue what you're on about, is this a political statement? because I'm not for imperialism.

 

[thetyreman]

Losing, not loosing.
Although a whole bunch of folks write loosing, I guess...

very patronising post, thanks.

 

[Spectric]

I've heard from several sources that french people don't like to wash and going on public transport stinks,

perhaps thats why they produce so much perfume, stench quench for the french.

 

[John Brown]

very patronising post, thanks.

You're welcome!
If you start complaining about other people's use of language you open yourself up to criticism.

 

[Droogs]

When i was doing my linguistics degree I was amazed at the number of versions of english there are, many of which other english speakers would have difficulty in understanding when spoken. Yet they are all english. A sad fact I learned was that english has the largest lexicon of any langauge and yet compared to 60 years ago the amount used in everyday communications today has shrunk by around 7% compared to then, blamed mostly on TV and electronic text media funnily enough. English is the most versatile language ever known to civilization mainly due to it's ability to ignore it's own grammar, syntax and original gender rules and still make sense.

just take the old Brtish gas advert with the tortoise saying "I like things to be off and onable". Total rule breaker in almost every way

 

[JimJay]

I’ve read all the posts in the thread (I think) and I would like to add my two cents (or maybe pennies?) in the conversation.

To begin with, the mutation of a language is one thing, the misuse of a language is another.

In regards of mutation:

1. A language is a live thing and it changes through the ages. As time passes it will evolve to cover the contemporary communication needs and as a result new words will appear and older words might be forgotten.

2. English is still quite a primitive language and it will go through many changes, more than other older languages at least.

3. The Americans, being a population of people with many different linguistic backgrounds, are trying to rationalise the relationship between pronunciation and spelling. For example meter/metre, theater/theatre. These words are pronounced the same both in US and Britain but the British still keep the Greek spelling.

4. Since the American English are more widespread through the movies, TV series etc. some of the changes they carry will inevitably prevail which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

In regards of misuse:

The main issue when people are not able to use correctly their native language is lack of reading.

And when I say reading I mean books or well written essays in news papers or magazines and not posts in the social media. Unfortunately according to a recent article of The Guardian one in five children in the UK doesn’t own a book.

This results to people who are just trying to reproduce a sound as they've heard it, which is not always correct, without having seen it written on paper. Hence I hear many people saying drawring (drawing), sawring (sawing), free (three), brought (bought), let alone what happens when they are trying to write something.

Reading good books will not only make you appreciate the beauty of a language, but it will also improve your own way to use the language and you will be less vulnerable to the linguistic absurdities that are widespread through the internet. Books will expand your knowledge as well, broaden your mind and enhance your critical thinking, but this a topic for a different thread.

3. If the British "kept the Greek spelling" those words (in the Latin alphabet) would be "metron" and "theatron".....as a gent with your nickname should know

 

[stuart little]

Or "like" as some sort of punctuation.

So, it get's on your wick?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

So, it gets on his wick, like.