THE FOURTH OF JULY

[selectortone]

if Starmer 'plays the game' to keep the most corrupt of our culture at bay, and introduces decent policies by stealth, then that's as good as we can hope for.

There speaks the voice of reason.

 

[Jacob]

I guess most of us suffer from a childish faith in the idea that truth and justice will, or could win through. The reality is that such concepts are reduced in our culture to the same level as tv dramas and the adverts that appear between them.

Trump is now partially immune to legal prosecution for his actions at the end of his presidency. The Supreme Court, arbiters of 'Truth and Justice the American Way' (Superman) is constituted by 6 judges appointed by Republican leaders, 3 by Democrats. 3 appointed by trump himself. Le Pen spewing bile that 1/3rd of French voters seem to think Right. Farage inventing himself as a man of the people and apparently getting away with it, blaming Europe, blaming immigrants, all True in the lazy minds of millions.

We'd all like to think that someone who stands and speaks the complete truth and seeks justice for people could win out, but that is not the world we live in. So if Starmer 'plays the game' to keep the most corrupt of our culture at bay, and introduces decent policies by stealth, then that's as good as we can hope for.

If you choose the lesser of two evils you still get evil.

Labour on 39.7% and falling slowly. 2017 was 40%. 2019 was 33.0% So Starmer still just ahead of Labour's worst since 1950
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/prediction_main.html

 

[selectortone]

If you choose the lesser of two evils you still get evil.

And if you don't vote (which you might as well not do if you're voting Green) you're choosing another five years of sleaze, entitlement and incompetence, and five more years of Michelle Mone and Jacob Rees Mogg.

 

[Chris152]

If you choose the lesser of two evils you still get evil.

Sounds a tad religious - once politics slips into that realm it's generally about faith rather than pragmatics.

 

[paulrbarnard]

My three kids all say they would be prepared to pay more tax if sensible measures could be taken to address at least some of the mess this country is in. I would. Just about all my mates would. I believe most sensible people would.

As would I but the problem lies in the caveat “sensible measures”. I don’t think I have ever seen a sensible measure from any government in the last fifty years.

 

[sploo]

I guess most of us suffer from a childish faith in the idea that truth and justice will, or could win through. The reality is that such concepts are reduced in our culture to the same level as tv dramas and the adverts that appear between them.

Trump is now partially immune to legal prosecution for his actions at the end of his presidency. The Supreme Court, arbiters of 'Truth and Justice the American Way' (Superman) is constituted by 6 judges appointed by Republican leaders, 3 by Democrats. 3 appointed by trump himself. Le Pen spewing bile that 1/3rd of French voters seem to think Right. Farage inventing himself as a man of the people and apparently getting away with it, blaming Europe, blaming immigrants, all True in the lazy minds of millions.

It is chilling at the moment; how many people in so many countries have been suckered into supporting what are basically fascists. You'd think we'd learn from history, but sadly not.

 

[Spectric]

It is chilling at the moment; how many people in so many countries have been suckered into supporting what are basically fascists. You'd think we'd learn from history, but sadly not.

The reason is not that the people want to go this direction but because they have been let down by the mainstream parties and turn to something else that at least might be different. We just get labour and conservative, just like the tide they come and go but have now morphed into something along similar lines so again people will look elsewhere as they see no change if you keep going through the same motions.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

The "stealth" is because the NHS is popular, and politicians like to be seen as champions of the service (and certainly do not want to be seen to be destroying it). Sadly, that is the intent of many on the economic right of the UK's political divide; but it is implemented quietly, for obvious reasons.

That the NHS is a top priority public services is understandable - and one to which I subscribe.

13% of UK adults have private healthcare - many as a job benefit.

Over 40% have voted Tory in elections since 2010.

Many health insurance companies have upper age limits or, if they do cover the elderly, high premiums. The elderly who make most use of healthcare are least likely to have it. It is the older demographic who are more likely to vote Tory.

Implicit in the (flawed) assumption that all with private healthcare are Tory voters means the other ~70% (often elderly) support a future with a degraded or non-existent public health service.

Given the importance the public attach to a fit for purpose NHS, the suggestion that Tories want to privatise or destroy the NHS is (IMHO) completely without foundation - plain bonkers!

That there are better ways (cost, quality, flexibility etc) to deliver healthcare using the private sector seems entirely reasonable. Failing to even consider alternatives is a product of a dogma driven closed mind, the consequence of which makes a sub-optimal service more not less likely.

 

[Jacob]

..... Failing to even consider alternatives is a product of a dogma driven closed mind, the consequence of which makes a sub-optimal service more not less likely.

The biggest failure in recent years has been the dogma of fighting imaginary inefficiency by over management and underfunding. "Austerity" in a word.

 

[John Hughes01]

You can't govern a country when you spend all your time watching your back as your colleagues on both sides are hell bent on stabbing you in the back as they claw their way to the top of the sh**t heap - the elecorate? Who are they? and what's it got to do with them anyway?. No,if you take your eye off the ball your "career" is up the shoot - I seem to remember Israel suffering this problem allowing Hamas to surprise them through the back door!!!

 

[sploo]

Given the importance the public attach to a fit for purpose NHS, the suggestion that Tories want to privatise or destroy the NHS is (IMHO) completely without foundation - plain bonkers!

My wife's an NHS doctor, and has literally been watching this happen over the last decade.

Where a public health care service is run into the ground, there is huge money to be made by providing privatised and insurance based services; that's really all you need to know for the foundation of "why". You only need to look to the US to see the money that can be made, and the consequences it has on the population. BTW the wife also worked for a period of time in a US hospital, so has seen that first hand too.

 

[whereistheceilidh]

That the NHS is a top priority public services is understandable - and one to which I subscribe.

13% of UK adults have private healthcare - many as a job benefit.

Over 40% have voted Tory in elections since 2010.

Many health insurance companies have upper age limits or, if they do cover the elderly, high premiums. The elderly who make most use of healthcare are least likely to have it. It is the older demographic who are more likely to vote Tory.

Implicit in the (flawed) assumption that all with private healthcare are Tory voters means the other ~70% (often elderly) support a future with a degraded or non-existent public health service.

Given the importance the public attach to a fit for purpose NHS, the suggestion that Tories want to privatise or destroy the NHS is (IMHO) completely without foundation - plain bonkers!

That there are better ways (cost, quality, flexibility etc) to deliver healthcare using the private sector seems entirely reasonable. Failing to even consider alternatives is a product of a dogma driven closed mind, the consequence of which makes a sub-optimal service more not less likely.

Look at the 'think tank' 1828 that campaigns to abolish the NHS. I think you will find a number of Tory MPs listed there including John Penrose. His wife, Dido Harding , just happened to be appointed by BJ (illegaly) to run Test & Trace during Covid.

 

[sploo]

The reason is not that the people want to go this direction but because they have been let down by the mainstream parties and turn to something else that at least might be different. We just get labour and conservative, just like the tide they come and go but have now morphed into something along similar lines so again people will look elsewhere as they see no change if you keep going through the same motions.

They've been let down by an inept and corrupt Tory party, that has been consumed by the con of Brexit. The woeful irony is that people are looking to a man who was one of the champions of Brexit. Oh, and also the fact he happens to be a Putin loving fascist that mimics Adolf's body language. That doesn't help either.

If only we could skip the whole resulting genocide stuff and go straight to the bit where he poisons himself in a bunker, but wishful thinking and all that.

Anyway, on a lighter note, here's Pie swearing his head off again...

 

[Chris152]

They've been let down by an inept and corrupt Tory party, that has been consumed by the con of Brexit. The woeful irony is that people are looking to a man who was one of the champions of Brexit. Oh, and also the fact he happens to be a Putin loving fascist that mimics Adolf's body language. That doesn't help either.

If only we could skip the whole resulting genocide stuff and go straight to the bit where he poisons himself in a bunker, but wishful thinking and all that.

Anyway, on a lighter note, here's Pie swearing his head off again...

Pie - absolutely brilliant, what a fantastic summary.

 

[Keith Cocker]

That the NHS is a top priority public services is understandable - and one to which I subscribe.

13% of UK adults have private healthcare - many as a job benefit.

Over 40% have voted Tory in elections since 2010.

Many health insurance companies have upper age limits or, if they do cover the elderly, high premiums. The elderly who make most use of healthcare are least likely to have it. It is the older demographic who are more likely to vote Tory.

Implicit in the (flawed) assumption that all with private healthcare are Tory voters means the other ~70% (often elderly) support a future with a degraded or non-existent public health service.

Given the importance the public attach to a fit for purpose NHS, the suggestion that Tories want to privatise or destroy the NHS is (IMHO) completely without foundation - plain bonkers!

That there are better ways (cost, quality, flexibility etc) to deliver healthcare using the private sector seems entirely reasonable. Failing to even consider alternatives is a product of a dogma driven closed mind, the consequence of which makes a sub-optimal service more not less likely.

Plain bonkers.

 

[Rhossydd]

the suggestion that Tories want to privatise or destroy the NHS is (IMHO) completely without foundation - plain bonkers!

The number of tories that have said publicly they want to privatise the NHS is quite high and the number that have financial interests in private health care is staggering. Of course they don't stand up in election campaigns and say it, it's electoral suicide, but if you see the past recording of what they've said in less public forums it's all in the public domain.

 

[selectortone]

Given the importance the public attach to a fit for purpose NHS, the suggestion that Tories want to privatise or destroy the NHS is (IMHO) completely without foundation - plain bonkers!

Given that the principle purpose of private sector medicine is, by definition, to make money (rather than any altruistic nonsense about curing people), the only reason it wants the NHS to continue is so that it can do the unprofitable stuff like A&E. As I mentioned earlier in this thread my daughter found this out when an operation at a private hospital went dangerously wrong after she was discharged. The private hospital told me to take her to the nearest NHS A&E. (Where they fixed the problem very quickly and professionally.)

Similarly, When my late wife was first diagnosed with cancer it was in an NHS hospital. She received initial treatment via the NHS until I cleared it with the private health insurer I had with the company I worked for. Once I got the OK, her treatment was transferred to the much smaller private hospital on the other side ot the road (Poole General vs The Harbour Hospital for those who are interested). I was a little surprised to find that the oncologist and surgeon who looked after her were the same two consultants she had had at the NHS hospital. While she was undergoing chemotherapy I could see them out of the window scuttling across the road between the two hospitals. While chatting to one of the nurses one day she told me that all the physicians worked for both. And when it came to radiotherapy, or use of any other large equipment like MRI scanners, they wheeled my wife over to the NHS hospital to use their machines.

 

[selectortone]

Given the importance the public attach to a fit for purpose NHS, the suggestion that Tories want to privatise or destroy the NHS is (IMHO) completely without foundation - plain bonkers!

And to directly answer the point - of course the tories want to privatise the NHS. The only reason they wouldn't put that in any manifesto is that it would be electoral suicide. (Although they are making a good job of that anyway )

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Given that the principle purpose of private sector medicine is, by definition, to make money (rather than any altruistic nonsense about curing people), the only reason it wants the NHS to continue is so that it can do the unprofitable stuff like A&E.

I have been a fortunate recipient (several times) of excellent NHS care without which I would not be typing this. The founding principle of free at the point of use based upon need must be retained.

We should articulate what is meant by the word "privatise" in the context of the NHS:

• make healthcare accessible only available to those who can pay - a denial of the fundamental NHS mission
• provide the opportunity to exploit (possibly) better, faster, more flexible etc delivery of NHS services whose control remains in the public sector

If the former I understand and share your concern. If the latter it is in the interest of all to encourage adoption of the best irrespective of whether it is publicly or privately delivered.

Profit is not a dirty word - it is a major driver of improvements to science, technology, processes, efficiency, performance, etc etc.

If the private sector delivers competitively priced and specified services, continues to improve their offering over time, and make a profit their input should be actively encouraged not blocked.

 

[whereistheceilidh]

I have been a fortunate recipient (several times) of excellent NHS care without which I would not be typing this. The founding principle of free at the point of use based upon need must be retained.

We should articulate what is meant by the word "privatise" in the context of the NHS:

• make healthcare accessible only available to those who can pay - a denial of the fundamental NHS mission
• provide the opportunity to exploit (possibly) better, faster, more flexible etc delivery of NHS services whose control remains in the public sector

If the former I understand and share your concern. If the latter it is in the interest of all to encourage adoption of the best irrespective of whether it is publicly or privately delivered.

Profit is not a dirty word - it is a major driver of improvements to science, technology, processes, efficiency, performance, etc etc.

If the private sector delivers competitively priced and specified services, continues to improve their offering over time, and make a profit their input should be actively encouraged not blocked.

Profit is not always a 'dirty' word but it is frequently abused in relationship to the NHS. Think PPE & Covid, profit & drug industry..... If it is used to re-invest in research then fine but if the NHS can operate more cheaply withoutout paying out profit that disappears offshore then so much the better......