THE FOURTH OF JULY

[Jake]

The socialist agenda ie the very definition of socialism is that nobody should own property, it should all be owned by the state.

That's communism, not socialism (in the European sense). The yanks get very confused about this.

 

[Jacob]

...

I’m sorry Jacob, but the term is defined and yes it is a theory.

It's defined in various ways by different people and whether or not it is a theory is a theory in itself.

 

[Spectric]

The only concern is that without raising taxes it would appear very difficult to fund

I have already said that they have a chicken farm where the hens all lay golden eggs and not a money tree like everyone thought. They have promised not to borrow or raise taxes so stalemate.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I would just like to politely correct this if I may.

Definition of socialism is:

“a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole”

Which is not state ownership.

I find this fearmongering attacks on Labour frustrating because the Labour has not ever been a socialist party and it’s policies are not socialism.

Labour when Corbyn was leader, was only putting forward slightly left leaning policies similar to the Nordic countries.

Corbyn suggested renationalising water: 90% of the world has state owned water. Nationalised rail and energy: it’s not socialist

Google helpfully tells me opposite of "socialist" is "capitalist", defined as "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit".

Pure capitalists may cooperate (I assume) to protect their common self interest - eg: in ensuring an effective military and police to protect their interests, but unless there was a profit to be made, other public services would remain non-existent.

Thus it would be no more reasonable to describe the Tory party as "capitalist", than Labour to fit the descriptor "socialist". Both are centre ground parties - one tending somewhat towards the left and one to the right.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Who knows. We should of course take notice of their life condition, history, wealth and needs. As for skills we need them all at every level.

It's a little like the magic money tree but labour related - I am there is an alliterative descriptor.

The former is borrowing money to fund a deficit caused by spending more than we earn. The latter is the import of cheap labour (from countries that can ill afford the exodus of skills), as we in the UK have proven ourselves incapable or unwilling to train or organise effectively.

The former creates increasing financial obligations which will need to be repaid. The latter stresses infrastructure (housing, health, schools, environment etc). Failing to resolve both these challenges serves only to impose even greater problems on generations to come - fundamentally unfair!

 

[Jacob]

It's a little like the magic money tree but labour related - I am there is an alliterative descriptor.

The former is borrowing money to fund a deficit caused by spending more than we earn.

No its a case of redistributing what we already have or earn.

The latter is the import of cheap labour (from countries that can ill afford the exodus of skills), as we in the UK have proven ourselves incapable or unwilling to train or organise effectively.

No it's a refugee crisis with people escaping from dire conditions.
If the labour is cheap that is the fault of the employers not the choice of the employees. In general employees have little control over their wages unless they have a strong unions, civilised minimum wages regulations and terms of employment, etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/society...ploiting-foreign-workers-caught-in-debt-traps

The former creates increasing financial obligations which will need to be repaid.

It costs what it costs

The latter stresses infrastructure (housing, health, schools, environment etc). Failing to resolve both these challenges serves only to impose even greater problems on generations to come - fundamentally unfair!

Quite the opposite. Migrants enrich the countries wherever they go, as is obvious at a glance around the globe. That's why they go where they go, they aren't going to go where there is no work and chance of a better life.

 

[Delaney]

Your piece is riddled with untruths and inaccuracies. This is just one example. I assume you are referring to Oxford & Cambridge. I went to Cambridge and I am still closely associated via an honorary role with my College and the University. What you say is nonsense. Admission is based exclusively on merit in the form of exam results and school record and a rigorous interview process. If the rest of your assertions are as fictitious as this your posts have little credibility.

That is not true. Many top scoring English pupils are being denied places for for geo political and financial reasons,

 

[Delaney]

Who knows. We should of course take notice of their life condition, history, wealth and needs. As for skills we need them all at every level.

So you have no idea how many people you are happy to accept?
You can’t possibly come to even a rough figure?

Let’s try another question.

What percentage of the population are you happy to be immigrants and or non ethnic north west european?

 

[Jacob]

So you have no idea how many people you are happy to accept?
You can’t possibly come to even a rough figure?

Let’s try another question.

What percentage of the population are you happy to be immigrants and or non ethnic north west european?

What is a "non ethnic north west european" exactly?
What figures would you be happy to accept yourself?

 

[Spectric]

No its a case of redistributing what we already have or earn.

The more you spread it the thinner it gets to the point where everyone has some but not enough to actually do anything with.

No it's a refugee crisis with people escaping from dire conditions.

So why are we not jumping into boats and heading for France or somewhere.

Migrants enrich the countries wherever they go

But migrants are not all the same and we do not want unskilled migrants that are just dead weight that consume without generating as we have enough people currently not in the job market. The truth is that they come from places with a very different culture to ours where in many cases the women are not treated equal. There have been many cases of friction due to cultural issues,

https://rmx.news/crime/several-repo...ural-english-county-by-groups-of-foreign-men/

Then what about national security, one minute we are attacking Isis in Iraq and Syria then welcoming them.

https://organiser.org/2024/01/03/21...esidency-to-isis-supporting-sudanese-migrant/

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/520/is-immigration-a-threat-to-uk-security

 

[Jacob]

The more you spread it the thinner it gets to the point where everyone has some but not enough to actually do anything with.


So why are we not jumping into boats and heading for France or somewhere.


But migrants are not all the same and we do not want unskilled migrants that are just dead weight that consume without generating as we have enough people currently not in the job market. The truth is that they come from places with a very different culture to ours where in many cases the women are not treated equal. There have been many cases of friction due to cultural issues,

View attachment 182274

https://rmx.news/crime/several-repo...ural-english-county-by-groups-of-foreign-men/

Then what about national security, one minute we are attacking Isis in Iraq and Syria then welcoming them.

https://organiser.org/2024/01/03/21...esidency-to-isis-supporting-sudanese-migrant/

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/520/is-immigration-a-threat-to-uk-security

Stupid and unpleasant racist propaganda.
This is not what a "moderator" should be doing.
It's appalling that some people see this sort of xenophobia and racism as a key issue in the general election.

 

[RobinBHM]

You need to tell Labour that The first line states ‘Labour is a democratic socialist party’. Labour has and will always be the Socialist Party.

Labour has never been a socialist party

Labour doesn’t have any socialist policies.

If you think it does, please could you show me a policy which says the means of production should be owned by the community.

I like the definition of socialism that you’ve found, we both agree, socialism excludes private ownership

But you stated socialism means the state owns everything.

It’s irrelevant anyway because Labour have never ever had preventing private enterprise as a policy.

I would suggest you are using an appeal to extremes fallacy to instill fearmongering against a Labour govt.

Do you think the neo liberal privatisation model we’ve had for the last 40+ years has been a success?

 

[RobinBHM]

The more you spread it the thinner it gets to the point where everyone has some but not enough to actually do anything with

We can certainly spread it lot thinner before it’s a problem


The U.K. has amongst the worst wealth distribution compared to most other Western economies.

We have a lower standard of living, and very poor public services compared to equivalent economies

Britain and the US are poor societies with some very rich people​

last year the lowest-earning bracket of British households had a standard of living that was 20 per cent weaker than their counterparts in Slovenia.

https://www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945

In 2007, the average UK household was 8 per cent worse off than its peers in north-western Europe, but the deficit has since ballooned to a record 20 per cent. On present trends, the average Slovenian household will be better off than its British counterpart by 2024, and the average Polish family will move ahead before the end of the decad

https://www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945

 

[Spectric]

Stupid and unpleasant racist propaganda.
This is not what a "moderator" should be doing.
It's appalling that some people see this sort of xenophobia and racism as a key issue in the general election.

There is nothing racist in those comments or quotes, they are heard on Tv and in many news reports so will be on peoples minds during this run up to the election and therefore will impact the outcome.

 

[Jacob]

Labour has never been a socialist party

Labour doesn’t have any socialist policies.

If you think it does, please could you show me a policy which says the means of production should be owned by the community.


But you stated socialism means the state owns everything.

It’s irrelevant anyway because Labour have never ever had preventing private enterprise as a policy.

I would suggest you are using an appeal to extremes fallacy to instill fearmongering against a Labour govt.

Do you think the neo liberal privatisation model we’ve had for the last 40+ years has been a success?

I don't know why you keep flogging this particular dead horse. Labour has been a socialist party from the start. Even Starmer says he is a socialist! Mind you he could be lying - his lips were moving!
If you want to hang on to your own personal strict definition of socialism you will just stay confused and keep pointlessly trotting out posts like this.
Mind you a lot of people are confused - they call themselves "democratic socialists" "social democrats" etc etc but nobody quite knows what they mean.
Clause 4 was dropped 20 years ago by Blair - who also said loud and clear that he himself was a socialist.
The original clause 4 was more of a loosely worded idealistic dream of the period which nobody thought would ever become literally a reality.

 

[RobinBHM]

Mortgaging our kids future has never seemed a very astute policy

Conservative borrowing increase:

From 2010 to 2019, total gross government debt (1) increased by £643 bn from £1.2 trillion to £1.8 trillion.

The only concern is that without raising taxes it would appear very difficult to fund without additional huge borrowings

Which part specifically as I’ve not seen any unfunded Labour policies

in fact more right wing than the Conservative promises so far

Really?

Labour policies:
Repeal anti union laws
End fire rehire
End zero hr contracts
Green new deal
State owned British energy company
Ditch Rwanda policy
Stay in ECHR
Rebuild relationship with EU
Nationalise railway operators

I’m not sure which of those are more right wing than Conservatives

 

[Spectric]

The country needs a total reform ! But spreading the wealth is not going to happen anytime soon and no party is going to deliver on that one because they see the wealthy as important to our economy and people who employ. A good solution would be a giant cooperative where we all earn not only money but stakes in the company so by working harder as a group the amount you earn grows which means pay is not linked to inflation but productivity.

 

[Cooper]

I was interested to see the debate on the meaning of socialism, Will Hutton raised exactly the same issues this morning, you may find the piece of interest ?
Socialism isn’t a dirty word. It’s simply about wanting to make a fairer society
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-make-a-fairer-society?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

[Jacob]

The country needs a total reform ! But spreading the wealth is not going to happen anytime soon

It's been happening all the time!
It's called "taxation" - first introduced into Britain about 1000 years ago. Income tax 1799. About 50% of GDP is public spending and is unlikely ever to be lower.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_taxation_in_the_United_Kingdom
The only odd thing about it is the way it is portrayed as some sort economic failure and should be kept low.
Quite the opposite - it pays for essential services and drives the economy, what goes around comes around, the more the better.
Low taxation is what you get in "banana republics".

 

[RobinBHM]

Both are centre ground parties

I would class the current iteration of the Conservatives as more right wing populism than centre right.

Eg:
1) nationalistic (Brexit)
2) control of the media
3) trying to remove power of courts to hold executive to account
4) ramp up hatred of foreigners
5) corruption / nepotism
6) dislike of experts
7) dislike of the arts