THE FOURTH OF JULY

[Yorkieguy]

Odious comment and quite clearly a sexist, classist arrogant ad hominem attack. You should be ashamed of yourself. Do you have a daughter, wife, niece. Think about it.

I did think about it before I posted it.

No, I'm not ashamed, but Angela Rayner should be

And no - it isn't sexist - I'd have made the same comment had it been a male substituting 'boy' for 'girl'.

All of the epithets that you ascribe to me are those which apply to Angela Rayner for her disgraceful rant.

She wears her working class roots as 'badge of honour' and excuses herself by defending her comments as being made in the “street language” of her northern working-class roots. That just doesn't wash. She was speaking not as a 'street urchin, but as the Deputy Shadow Prime Minister at the Labour Party Conference in 2022. Many politicians and members of the the public came from similar or worse backgrounds, and so did I, but they learn to moderate their language. Using the Conference platform to hurl insults at the opposition, rather than to outline Labour's policies, should they be elected, was a wasted opportunity.

An she could, and should, have apologised with good grace without delay, but she didn't.

Here's what she said:

Quote:

"Labour deputy leader refuses to say sorry, describing terms as ‘street language’ of her working-class roots"

Angela Rayner has stood by her description of the Conservatives as “homophobic, racist, misogynistic … scum” after the Labour leader distanced himself from her words. The deputy Labour leader declined to apologise for her remarks, which were made at a Labour conference reception the day before.

“We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile … banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian … piece of scum,” she said at the event, before adding that she had “held back a little”.

Her remarks drew criticism from some Tories, while two shadow cabinet ministers – Lisa Nandy and Ed Miliband – said they would not use the same terms. But speaking on Sunday, Rayner defended her comments as being made in the “street language” of her northern working-class roots.

End quote.

That's from the Labour-supporting Guardian Newspaper.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/26/angela-rayner-stands-by-remarks-calling-tories-scum

As to being 'classist' I guess the inference is that I'm a 'Tory Toff' born 'with a silver spoon in my mouth' who 'doesn't know how the other half live'. Not so - I know a bit about 'being in the gutter', and ordinarily I wouldn't mention it because it will sound like a 'misery memoir' but here goes anyway:

I was born in June 1939 in Nottingham, at the onset of WW2, when my mother was 36.

I was illegitimate, and as was the norm back then, my mother was disowned by her family and shown the door. I spent the first three months of my life in an unmarried home, which was the maximum stay. Unmarried mothers were seen as the architects of their own misfortune, so at 3 months, along with their children, they were turfed out to find accommodation. There was no welfare state, and no NHS till I was aged nine.

They were urged to give up their children for adoption, which many did. Most babies (and war orphans), were shipped out to Australia, where the motto was 'Populate or Perish', or to Canada. Luckier ones were adopted by childless couples, often arranged by family doctors who would help to pair the progeny of expectant single mothers with childless couples.

My mother wouldn't give me up, and moved from one set of damp slum lodgings to another.

We ended up in a slum, (no bath, no hot water, an outside toilet), where a kindly spinster ('Annie') in her late 50s let out a room with two camp beds in it. In July 1944, two weeks after my fifth Birthday, when my mum was 41, Annie woke me up and said 'Your mum's gone to Jesus in the night and she's not coming back, so you'd better call me mum from now on', so I did, and life went on. My mum had died of TB. Another year later, streptomycin was discovered, which may have saved her life. (How kind of Annie to take in someone with a highly contagious killer disease).

Annie died when I was fourteen, and I went to live with an elderly aunt where I had a proper bed - not a canvas camp bed. I've since checked with Social Services and the Children's Society who have no records of my existence - I wasn't adopted, or fostered - Annie just 'took me in' as someone might 'take in' a stray cat. I found two burial certificates some years ago - one for my mother - the other a family grave. I asked at the cemetery staff where the graves were located and was told: 'I can tell you where that one is, but I'll have to take you to other'. One was a large marble affair with several names on it. (The family grave). They then took me to a grave where he said "This is the grave of the Towle Family. The only significance to you is that this is where your mother lies". He pointed to a patch of grass which had no headstone.

So even in death my mother was disowned by her family and lies in an unmarked grave.

I've no idea who my father was - I just think of him as a 'sperm donor'. How lucky I was to have been born in 1939 - not 2019. The most dangerous place for a child to be nowadays is in its mother womb. 215,000 pregnancies were terminated in England and Wales in 2021, despite birth control including the 'morning after pill' being available.

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...21/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2021

I went to an inner city school and like most in that era, I left school at 15 with no qualifications - there were none to be had. I gained an apprenticeship later went into management, and got along well with people at all levels. When I retired, I was responsible for £100 mill turnover and 600 staff.

Yes - I do have a wife - we've been married for 62 years, and we have two sons who went to a mediocre Comprehensive in Rotherham - both gained honours degrees and have successful careers. One is married to a girl whose father came from Kolkata, India, to work in the coal mines in the 60's, the other to a girl whose family were Lebanese, who fled to Paris in the 60s to escape hostilities. We have three granddaughters who have all gained first class honours degrees.

I don't mention any of this to be boastful - there's nothing unique about me - many others will have fared far worse.

So I guess that the child I once was 'came out of the gutter' but at no time in my life have I ever used the invective that Angela Rayner used, and I've never used 'street language' or my bleak upbringing as a 'badge of honour' and nor should the 'Deputy Prime Minister in waiting' - she should learn good manners and know when to bite her tongue.

Angela Rayner too had an illegitimate child aged 16 in 1996, with the support of a well-established welfare state, and different social attitudes to illegitimacy than when I was young, thank goodness. She had a council house which she then bought and sold at a profit, benefiting from a policy introduced by 'Tory Scum'. Before 1977 unmarried mothers and their children were usually excluded from Council House Lists to send a strong message that unmarried parents should be blamed and penalised for their supposed bad decisions. How time change. 51% of children in England and Wales are now born illegitimate.

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discov...land-and-wales-now-born-to-unmarried-parents/

Not ranting, not boasting, just rambling.

There's much more I could say about childhood setbacks, but I think this is quite enough.

I hope it sets things into a better perspective.

At 85, I've had a good shake of the dice.

 

[Chris152]

We have an election coming up but are we really looking no further than our noses, yes it will have an impact on us but in the grand scheme of things what about the goings on in America which could have far greater impact on us long term. It is probably as certain that Trump will win like Starmer here and then what about " our special relationship" as Trump has said that Europe needs to stand on it's own feet and not be so reliant on the USA. Now Starmer could be given the cold shoulder by the US and no hope of any trade deals which is not good and then maybe we should snub him and turn to China.

Or stand together with Europe, which we should have done in the first place.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Your piece is riddled with untruths and inaccuracies. This is just one example. I assume you are referring to Oxford & Cambridge. I went to Cambridge and I am still closely associated via an honorary role with my College and the University. What you say is nonsense. Admission is based exclusively on merit in the form of exam results and school record and a rigorous interview process. If the rest of your assertions are as fictitious as this your posts have little credibility.

The university seem to make a somewhat fine distinction between "positive discrimination" (illegal) and "positive action" (absolutely fine).

Cambridge

The subtlety is probably lost on most of us without a leading Russell Group education behind us.

 

[RobinBHM]

Your piece is riddled with untruths and inaccuracies. This is just one example. I assume you are referring to Oxford & Cambridge. I went to Cambridge and I am still closely associated via an honorary role with my College and the University. What you say is nonsense. Admission is based exclusively on merit in the form of exam results and school record and a rigorous interview process. If the rest of your assertions are as fictitious as this your posts have little credibility.

It never fails to amaze what clever people there are in this forum.

Woodworking obviously attracts highly intelligent people

 

[RobinBHM]

Now Starmer could be given the cold shoulder by the US and no hope of any trade deals which is not good

There was never any hope of a trade deal of any value with the USA

The belief that U.K. would benefit from making its own trade deals was always a fallacy.

The shops and online have always been full of stuff from China, India, America, Australia, Vietnam, etc etc.

The idea there were new opportunities was never true.

 

[Jacob]

This is all rather odd and a classic example of jamming the signal.

Please tell us roughly how many people wishing to move here and what type (skills, beliefs), we should take?
Perhaps starting at the end, will be more sensible.

Who knows. We should of course take notice of their life condition, history, wealth and needs. As for skills we need them all at every level.

 

[Jacob]

I did think about it before I posted it.

No, I'm not ashamed, but Angela Rayner should be

And no - it isn't sexist - I'd have made the same comment had it been a male substituting 'boy' for 'girl'.

All of the epithets that you ascribe to me are those which apply to Angela Rayner for her disgraceful rant.

She wears her working class roots as 'badge of honour' and excuses herself by defending her comments as being made in the “street language” of her northern working-class roots. That just doesn't wash. She was speaking not as a 'street urchin, but as the Deputy Shadow Prime Minister at the Labour Party Conference in 2022. Many politicians and members of the the public came from similar or worse backgrounds, and so did I, but they learn to moderate their language. Using the Conference platform to hurl insults at the opposition, rather than to outline Labour's policies, should they be elected, was a wasted opportunity.

An she could, and should, have apologised with good grace without delay, but she didn't.

Here's what she said:

Quote:

"Labour deputy leader refuses to say sorry, describing terms as ‘street language’ of her working-class roots"

Angela Rayner has stood by her description of the Conservatives as “homophobic, racist, misogynistic … scum” after the Labour leader distanced himself from her words. The deputy Labour leader declined to apologise for her remarks, which were made at a Labour conference reception the day before.

“We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile … banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian … piece of scum,” she said at the event, before adding that she had “held back a little”.

Her remarks drew criticism from some Tories, while two shadow cabinet ministers – Lisa Nandy and Ed Miliband – said they would not use the same terms. But speaking on Sunday, Rayner defended her comments as being made in the “street language” of her northern working-class roots.

End quote.

That's from the Labour-supporting Guardian Newspaper.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/26/angela-rayner-stands-by-remarks-calling-tories-scum

As to being 'classist' I guess the inference is that I'm a 'Tory Toff' born 'with a silver spoon in my mouth' who 'doesn't know how the other half live'. Not so - I know a bit about 'being in the gutter', and ordinarily I wouldn't mention it because it will sound like a 'misery memoir' but here goes anyway:

I was born in June 1939 in Nottingham, at the onset of WW2, when my mother was 36.

I was illegitimate, and as was the norm back then, my mother was disowned by her family and shown the door. I spent the first three months of my life in an unmarried home, which was the maximum stay. Unmarried mothers were seen as the architects of their own misfortune, so at 3 months, along with their children, they were turfed out to find accommodation. There was no welfare state, and no NHS till I was aged nine.

They were urged to give up their children for adoption, which many did. Most babies (and war orphans), were shipped out to Australia, where the motto was 'Populate or Perish', or to Canada. Luckier ones were adopted by childless couples, often arranged by family doctors who would help to pair the progeny of expectant single mothers with childless couples.

My mother wouldn't give me up, and moved from one set of damp slum lodgings to another.

We ended up in a slum, (no bath, no hot water, an outside toilet), where a kindly spinster ('Annie') in her late 50s let out a room with two camp beds in it. In July 1944, two weeks after my fifth Birthday, when my mum was 41, Annie woke me up and said 'Your mum's gone to Jesus in the night and she's not coming back, so you'd better call me mum from now on', so I did, and life went on. My mum had died of TB. Another year later, streptomycin was discovered, which may have saved her life. (How kind of Annie to take in someone with a highly contagious killer disease).

Annie died when I was fourteen, and I went to live with an elderly aunt where I had a proper bed - not a canvas camp bed. I've since checked with Social Services and the Children's Society who have no records of my existence - I wasn't adopted, or fostered - Annie just 'took me in' as someone might 'take in' a stray cat. I found two burial certificates some years ago - one for my mother - the other a family grave. I asked at the cemetery staff where the graves were located and was told: 'I can tell you where that one is, but I'll have to take you to other'. One war a large marble affair with several names on it. The then took me to a grave where he said "This is the grave of the Towle Family. The only significance to you is that this is where your mother lies". He pointed to a patch of grass which had no headstone.

So even in death my mother was disowned by her family and lies in an unmarked grave.

I've no idea who my father was - I just think of him as a 'sperm donor'. How lucky I was to have been born in 1939 - not 2019. The most dangerous place for a child to be nowadays is it its mother womb. 215,000 pregnancies were terminated in England and Wales in 2021, despite birth control including the 'morning after pill' being available.

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...21/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2021

I went to an inner city school and like most in that era, I left school at 15 with no qualifications - there were none to be had. I gained an apprenticeship later went into management, and got along well with people at all levels. When I retired, I was responsible for £100 mill turnover and 600 staff.

Yes - I do have a wife - we've been married for 62 years, and we have two sons who went to a mediocre Comprehensive in Rotherham - both gained honours degrees and have successful careers. One is married to a girl whose father came from Kolkata, India, to work in the coal mines in the 60's, the other to a girl whose family were Lebanese, who fled to Paris in the 60s to escape hostilities. We have three granddaughters who have all gained first class honours degrees.

I don't mention any of this to be boastful - there's nothing unique about me - many others will have fared far worse.

So I guess that the child I once was 'came out of the gutter' but at no time in my life have I ever used the invective that Angela Rayner used, and I've never used 'street language' or my bleak upbringing as a 'badge of honour' and nor should the 'Deputy Prime Minister in waiting' - she should learn good manners and know when to bite her tongue.

Angela Rayner too had an illegitimate child aged 16 in 1996, with the support of a well-established welfare state, different social attitudes to illegitimacy than when I was young, thank goodness. She had a council house which she then bought and sold at a profit, benefiting from a policy introduced by 'Tory Scum'. Before 1977 unmarried mothers and their children were usually excluded from Council House Lists to send a strong message that unmarried parents should be blamed and penalised for their supposed bad decisions. How time change. 51% of children in England and Wales are now born illegitimate.

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discov...land-and-wales-now-born-to-unmarried-parents/

UK children of unmarried parents are no longer illegitimate. Where they ever? Unmarried mothers were certainly badly treated even in living memory, usually by the parents who couldn't take "the shame of it"
"There is a law which reads: "Children born out of wedlock shall enjoy the same rights as children born in lawful wedlock. No person shall be allowed to harm or discriminate against children born out of wedlock.""

Not ranting, not boasting, just rambling.

There's much more I could say about childhood setbacks, but I think this is quite enough.

I hope it sets things into a better perspective.

At 85, I've had a good shake of the dice.

I thought Angela launched a bit of a scatter shot with "Tory Scum" but better out than in!

 

[Jacob]

.... Now Starmer could be given the cold shoulder by the US and no hope of any trade deals which is not good and then maybe we should snub him and turn to China.

What special trade deals have we achieved so far with USA? Non as far as I know.

 

[Spectric]

Or stand together with Europe, which we should have done in the first place.

We are or were much better than that, once upon a time it was the UK who pulled the strings and so why would we want to let them tell us what to do, make rules we have to follow and jump when told to do so. I can see that having such bad leadership over the last two or three decades will have made people look elsewhere for leadership but who would have thought we would have wanted to become part of a German empire in the first place. The EU will come apart over the next few years as not all current members want to be part of a federal state and surrender even more of there independance.

 

[John Brown]

"That is why many if the current ‘lefts’ positions, make almost no sense.
You want to protect the working class but are pro mass immigration.
You want to protect women's rights but yet act in a way that only puts them in danger.
You believe in democracy yet want to overturn a referendum and take us into an increasingly undemocratic foreign union.
You hate the idea of Empire yet worship the EU.
You hate racism yet call north west europeans with red skin a certain cut of pork.
You hate bigotry yet also call for anyone who doesn’t agree with you, to be hounded out if their job, their life and society."
I class myself as left leaning, but I don't believe I fit any of your stenotypes.
Maybe I'm mistaken, maybe I'm right wing after all.

 

[John Brown]

This is all rather odd and a classic example of jamming the signal.

Please tell us roughly how many people wishing to move here and what type (skills, beliefs), we should take?
Perhaps starting at the end, will be more sensible.

Maybe you could tell me why you believe that life on earth should be nothing more than a giant lottery based on where you happen to have been born.

 

[Jacob]

We are or were much better than that, once upon a time it was the UK who pulled the strings

We were pulling strings in the EU if you recall. That's why we we joined!

and so why would we want to let them tell us what to do,

They didn't. We negotiated agreements for our mutual advantage, mainly to make trade easier. it is now much more difficult. We still have to abide by their rules but have no say in negotiating them.

make rules we have to follow and jump when told to do so.

We left and no longer pulling strings in Europe so if we want to trade with them they can still tell us what to do and jump etc and there's now nothing we can do about it, except not trade.

I can see that having such bad leadership over the last two or three decades will have made people look elsewhere for leadership but who would have thought we would have wanted to become part of a German empire in the first place.

nonsense, but if true we would be better in EU and still pulling strings

The EU will come apart over the next few years as not all current members want to be part of a federal state and surrender even more of there independance.

Nobody has surrendered independence, they can all drop out if they wish, just as we did. But if we wish to rejoin we are not free to choose.

The amazing thing about Brexit is that even now people still can't see that the logic was completely upside down and that it has been a catastrophe so far, with no prospect of any improvement on the horizon.
Just have to keep patiently explaining the facts!!! Over and over again!!! Yawn!!!!
I see it as a useful exercise so I can explain things better to my grandchildren.

 

[RobinBHM]

The socialist agenda ie the very definition of socialism is that nobody should own property, it should all be owned by the state

I would just like to politely correct this if I may.

Definition of socialism is:

“a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole”

Which is not state ownership.

I find this fearmongering attacks on Labour frustrating because the Labour has not ever been a socialist party and it’s policies are not socialism.

Labour when Corbyn was leader, was only putting forward slightly left leaning policies similar to the Nordic countries.

Corbyn suggested renationalising water: 90% of the world has state owned water. Nationalised rail and energy: it’s not socialist

 

[Jacob]

I would just like to politely correct this if I may.

Definition of socialism is:

“a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole”

Which is not state ownership.

I find this fearmongering attacks on Labour frustrating because the Labour has not ever been a socialist party and it’s policies are not socialism.

Labour when Corbyn was leader, was only putting forward slightly left leaning policies similar to the Nordic countries.

Corbyn suggested renationalising water: 90% of the world has state owned water. Nationalised rail and energy: it’s not socialist

It's hardly even defined, let alone "a theory".
It's more about the practicalities of life. You don't need a theory to tell you that homeless people need homes.....etc etc

 

[RobinBHM]

We were pulling strings in the EU if you recall. That's why we we joined!

They didn't. We negotiated agreements for our mutual advantage, mainly to make trade easier. it is now much more difficult. We still have to abide by their rules but have no say in negotiating them.

We left and no longer pulling strings in Europe so if we want to trade with them they can still tell us what to do and jump etc and there's now nothing we can do about it, except not trade.

nonsense, but if true we would be better in EU and still pulling strings

Nobody has surrendered independence, they can all drop out if they wish, just as we did. But if we wish to rejoin we are not free to choose.

The amazing thing about Brexit is that even now people still can't see that the logic was completely upside down and that it has been a catastrophe so far, with no prospect of any improvement on the horizon.
Just have to keep patiently explaining the facts!!! Over and over again!!! Yawn!!!!
I see it as a useful exercise so I can explain things better to my grandchildren.

Whilst I agree with you, it might not be good getting into Brexit in this thread.

Its an extremely complex topic that has been reduced to emotive slogans….nothing we say will change that sadly.

 

[Cozzer]

I did think about it before I posted it.

No, I'm not ashamed, but Angela Rayner should be

And no - it isn't sexist - I'd have made the same comment had it been a male substituting 'boy' for 'girl'.

All of the epithets that you ascribe to me are those which apply to Angela Rayner for her disgraceful rant.

She wears her working class roots as 'badge of honour' and excuses herself by defending her comments as being made in the “street language” of her northern working-class roots. That just doesn't wash. She was speaking not as a 'street urchin, but as the Deputy Shadow Prime Minister at the Labour Party Conference in 2022. Many politicians and members of the the public came from similar or worse backgrounds, and so did I, but they learn to moderate their language. Using the Conference platform to hurl insults at the opposition, rather than to outline Labour's policies, should they be elected, was a wasted opportunity.

An she could, and should, have apologised with good grace without delay, but she didn't.

Here's what she said:

Quote:

"Labour deputy leader refuses to say sorry, describing terms as ‘street language’ of her working-class roots"

Angela Rayner has stood by her description of the Conservatives as “homophobic, racist, misogynistic … scum” after the Labour leader distanced himself from her words. The deputy Labour leader declined to apologise for her remarks, which were made at a Labour conference reception the day before.

“We cannot get any worse than a bunch of scum, homophobic, racist, misogynistic, absolute vile … banana republic, vile, nasty, Etonian … piece of scum,” she said at the event, before adding that she had “held back a little”.

Her remarks drew criticism from some Tories, while two shadow cabinet ministers – Lisa Nandy and Ed Miliband – said they would not use the same terms. But speaking on Sunday, Rayner defended her comments as being made in the “street language” of her northern working-class roots.

End quote.

That's from the Labour-supporting Guardian Newspaper.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/26/angela-rayner-stands-by-remarks-calling-tories-scum

As to being 'classist' I guess the inference is that I'm a 'Tory Toff' born 'with a silver spoon in my mouth' who 'doesn't know how the other half live'. Not so - I know a bit about 'being in the gutter', and ordinarily I wouldn't mention it because it will sound like a 'misery memoir' but here goes anyway:

I was born in June 1939 in Nottingham, at the onset of WW2, when my mother was 36.

I was illegitimate, and as was the norm back then, my mother was disowned by her family and shown the door. I spent the first three months of my life in an unmarried home, which was the maximum stay. Unmarried mothers were seen as the architects of their own misfortune, so at 3 months, along with their children, they were turfed out to find accommodation. There was no welfare state, and no NHS till I was aged nine.

They were urged to give up their children for adoption, which many did. Most babies (and war orphans), were shipped out to Australia, where the motto was 'Populate or Perish', or to Canada. Luckier ones were adopted by childless couples, often arranged by family doctors who would help to pair the progeny of expectant single mothers with childless couples.

My mother wouldn't give me up, and moved from one set of damp slum lodgings to another.

We ended up in a slum, (no bath, no hot water, an outside toilet), where a kindly spinster ('Annie') in her late 50s let out a room with two camp beds in it. In July 1944, two weeks after my fifth Birthday, when my mum was 41, Annie woke me up and said 'Your mum's gone to Jesus in the night and she's not coming back, so you'd better call me mum from now on', so I did, and life went on. My mum had died of TB. Another year later, streptomycin was discovered, which may have saved her life. (How kind of Annie to take in someone with a highly contagious killer disease).

Annie died when I was fourteen, and I went to live with an elderly aunt where I had a proper bed - not a canvas camp bed. I've since checked with Social Services and the Children's Society who have no records of my existence - I wasn't adopted, or fostered - Annie just 'took me in' as someone might 'take in' a stray cat. I found two burial certificates some years ago - one for my mother - the other a family grave. I asked at the cemetery staff where the graves were located and was told: 'I can tell you where that one is, but I'll have to take you to other'. One war a large marble affair with several names on it. The then took me to a grave where he said "This is the grave of the Towle Family. The only significance to you is that this is where your mother lies". He pointed to a patch of grass which had no headstone.

So even in death my mother was disowned by her family and lies in an unmarked grave.

I've no idea who my father was - I just think of him as a 'sperm donor'. How lucky I was to have been born in 1939 - not 2019. The most dangerous place for a child to be nowadays is it its mother womb. 215,000 pregnancies were terminated in England and Wales in 2021, despite birth control including the 'morning after pill' being available.

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...21/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2021

I went to an inner city school and like most in that era, I left school at 15 with no qualifications - there were none to be had. I gained an apprenticeship later went into management, and got along well with people at all levels. When I retired, I was responsible for £100 mill turnover and 600 staff.

Yes - I do have a wife - we've been married for 62 years, and we have two sons who went to a mediocre Comprehensive in Rotherham - both gained honours degrees and have successful careers. One is married to a girl whose father came from Kolkata, India, to work in the coal mines in the 60's, the other to a girl whose family were Lebanese, who fled to Paris in the 60s to escape hostilities. We have three granddaughters who have all gained first class honours degrees.

I don't mention any of this to be boastful - there's nothing unique about me - many others will have fared far worse.

So I guess that the child I once was 'came out of the gutter' but at no time in my life have I ever used the invective that Angela Rayner used, and I've never used 'street language' or my bleak upbringing as a 'badge of honour' and nor should the 'Deputy Prime Minister in waiting' - she should learn good manners and know when to bite her tongue.

Angela Rayner too had an illegitimate child aged 16 in 1996, with the support of a well-established welfare state, different social attitudes to illegitimacy than when I was young, thank goodness. She had a council house which she then bought and sold at a profit, benefiting from a policy introduced by 'Tory Scum'. Before 1977 unmarried mothers and their children were usually excluded from Council House Lists to send a strong message that unmarried parents should be blamed and penalised for their supposed bad decisions. How time change. 51% of children in England and Wales are now born illegitimate.

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discov...land-and-wales-now-born-to-unmarried-parents/

Not ranting, not boasting, just rambling.

There's much more I could say about childhood setbacks, but I think this is quite enough.

I hope it sets things into a better perspective.

At 85, I've had a good shake of the dice.

Wow.
"The boy done well".
Credit to you.

 

[RobinBHM]

It's hardly even defined, let alone "a theory".
It's more about the practicalities of life. You don't need a theory to tell you that homeless people need homes.....etc etc

I honestly think the left wing of Labour has done themselves no favours by adopting a term that doesn’t represent what they are fighting for but has become a frequently used pejorative.

I’m sorry Jacob, but the term is defined and yes it is a theory.

Homeless people can have homes in a capitalist society

 

[deema]

I would just like to politely correct this if I may.

Definition of socialism is:

“a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole”

Which is not state ownership.

I find this fearmongering attacks on Labour frustrating because the Labour has not ever been a socialist party and it’s policies are not socialism.

Labour when Corbyn was leader, was only putting forward slightly left leaning policies similar to the Nordic countries.

Corbyn suggested renationalising water: 90% of the world has state owned water. Nationalised rail and energy: it’s not socialist

You need to tell Labour that The first line states ‘Labour is a democratic socialist party’. Labour has and will always be the Socialist Party.
I like the definition of socialism that you’ve found, we both agree, socialism excludes private ownership. So home ownership should be abolished under socialism. The state, or in the definition you’ve highlighted the community is to own everything.

https://www.policyforum.labour.org.uk/about/policy-process

 

[Jake]

That is no different to countries like Australia where you can apply and need to meet the criteria to be given asylum otherwise you are rejected, you could then just turn up but will still be rejected and deported.

Well it is considerably different, because Australia does have means of applying for asylum when not already in the country, and what it does not permit is applying when you've already landed. Almost the polar opposite actually.

 

[deema]

I have just read the summary of promises Labour (Keir) has made (without the authority of a manifesto). All sounds very good and sensible, in fact more right wing than the Conservative promises so far! The only concern is that without raising taxes it would appear very difficult to fund without additional huge borrowings. Mortgaging our kids future has never seemed a very astute policy.