Tenon Saws - advice needed

[Routermonster]

Hi all

Inspired by the sharpening posts on this forum I decided to give my neglected and abused 20 year old Tyzack dovetail saw some TLC. So I cleaned it up and sharpened the teeth in a rip pattern. it's not perfect (20 tpi are difficult to focus on!), but it cuts now!

Anyway, one thing led to another and I thought I'd buy some tenon saws off ebay, thinking I'd practice my sharpening skills (?) some more. I ended up with this Wm Hargreaves saw:

.... and here's another view:

The blade and handle have been coated in blackish gunge (some sort of wax?), so I'm inclined to clean it all off , get rid of the rust on the blade and see whether I can remove the remaining varnish and polish the handle. I've tried to undo the clench screws, but they're locked solid and look like they'll be impossible to remove without damaging them.

The handle wobbles a little, so if I can't remove the screws, should I try to insert a small sliver of veneer in the slot behind the blade. It desperately needs jointing and sharpening; the tooth pitch is 16 tpi so it should be easier to sharpen than the DT saw.

Is it worth spending time and elbow grease on this one?

(I've got a couple of old 10" Tyzacks waiting to be done as well - SWMBO is not impressed!)

Cheers

Les

 

[Alf]

Slip slidin' away, Les... :wink:

Well Hand-Saw Makers has only one Hargreaves - Hargreaves, Smith & Co. Eyre Lane, Sheffield. 1890s or thereabouts. Any connection? Doubt it, to be honest, but you never know. Looking at it the sunken medallion and the London pattern handle all suggest older to me, but the detail of the handle shape looks either a) second quality line or b) more recent times than I associate sunken medallions with. Are we talking split nuts here? Domed?

Anyway, certainly worth cleaning up assuming the blade isn't bent. The veneer should work okay, bit of elbow grease to clean up the handle and blade, yep, no reason why it couldn't be a good user.

Incidentally, not often you hear people welcoming 16tpi as being "easier" - you've gone right in at the deep end, haven't you! :shock: :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

psst! Can a mod fix one of the images?

Both links are

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/routermonste ... eaves2.jpg

But a little (un)inspired guessing reveals...

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/routermonste ... eaves1.jpg

Here's my version:

And yeah, 20 TPI is bad for the eyes - what files did you use, since getting good files in that size is quite an interesting excercise?

BugBear

 

[Routermonster]

Hi BugBear

Thanks for sorting out the links to the images. This was my first attempt at setting up a site on the web to allow me to post pictures ; hopefully I'll do better next time.

I used a Vallorbe 4 inch extra slim saw file which I bought from Axminster -i t's the smallest size I could find. It's about 3/16 inch max. across the flats and was just about OK on the DT saw. I got the impression from reading the other posts that there are very few places selling saw files, and when you can find them they're very expensive to buy. Classic Hand Tools sell something similar.

Has anyone tried a needle file for this sort of job?

I use a spotlight and magnifying glass to cope with the effects of old age and tooth size (the saw's - not mine).

I made a rake alignment jig as decribed in the Vintage Saws website. At the moment I'm using a pair of ply strips as improvised saw chops. I've marked them at 1 inch intervals to help me gauge progress when shaping the teeth. This allows me to stop at each mark if I want, take a breather, and move on to the next batch.

I was fortunate in ending up with a fairly even set of gullets after the jointing stage. I found it helped to set up a steady rhythm and use the same number of strokes on each gullet. The end result was a fairly even set of sharp teeth (beginner's luck?)

My next challenge is to to get to grips with fleam angles and make a jig if necessary, and then start on another saw!

It's good fun once you get going!

Cheers

Les

 

[Colin C]

I have used a small 3 corner file from a set of needle files to do a friends dovetail saw and been happy with it after

Thing is I have to do mine soon
Hard work to do miss any :roll: ( fingers crossed )

 

[bugbear]

Hi BugBear

Thanks for sorting out the links to the images. This was my first attempt at setting up a site on the web to allow me to post pictures ; hopefully I'll do better next time.

No problem; I was hoping a mod could edit your post; mine was merely inteneded as an interim substitute.

I used a Vallorbe 4 inch extra slim saw file which I bought from Axminster -i t's the smallest size I could find. It's about 3/16 inch max. across the flats and was just about OK on the DT saw.

Hmm.

That wasn't my opinion, I'm afraid:
http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_s ... html#files

Has anyone tried a needle file for this sort of job?

Yes; my present ONLY choice for teeth 15 tpi or finer. But not all needle files have sharp enough corners.

I made a rake alignment jig as decribed in the Vintage Saws website.

I don't like that design, but then (in fairness) not many people like my alternative :?

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/shop_ ... le_pointer

My next challenge is to to get to grips with fleam angles and make a jig if necessary, and then start on another saw!

Fleam is easy; the tolerances are wider.
http://www.geocities.com/plybench/saw_s ... html#fleam

It's good fun once you get going!

Rewarding too; this knowledge allows you to make a 5 quid (or less ) saw cut (almost(*)) like the finest (and most expensive) saws on the market.

BugBear

(*) I thought I was pretty good until I had a close look at the teeth on an Adria

 

[Routermonster]

Hi BugBear

DUH ! ...... Here was I thinking I'd got the wrong links on my web pages when all the time it was the blinkin' message that was at fault! Anyway I've edited the links and they should point to the correct pics this time. :roll:

Thanks for your helpful comments and links to your site. Looks like I need to study your printouts and jigs - I like the idea of a file handle made from dowel.

I've dug out a CK needle file from my box of old modelling tools. It is certainly narrower than the 4" extra slim (the sides measure about 1/8" at their widest), and it has hardly been used, but I'm not sure whether the corners are any sharper than on the 4" extra slim. What brand needle files do you use and where do you buy them?

By the way, do you know where I can buy some clench screws. One of my recent saw purchases from ebay has an odd set of screws which I'd like to replace especially if I decide to make a replacement handle for it (longer term project).

All the best

Les

 

[Pete W]

do you know where I can buy some clench screws.

Rutlands has them, although the search facility on their website doesn't want you to find them.

Here you go:
http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/RL752

 

[bugbear]

Thanks for your helpful comments and links to your site. Looks like I need to study your printouts and jigs - I like the idea of a file handle made from dowel.

Actually, dowel makes poor handles - but it allows me to use my rake pointer thingy, which (IMHO) gives excellent resuilts. If I had the time and talent I'd make fancy handles with standardised 1/2" diameter ends, but I'm lazy.

I've dug out a CK needle file from my box of old modelling tools. It is certainly narrower than the 4" extra slim (the sides measure about 1/8" at their widest), and it has hardly been used, but I'm not sure whether the corners are any sharper than on the 4" extra slim. What brand needle files do you use and where do you buy them?

Ah. My best, smallest, and most useful needle files are all old ones scrounged at car boots. I can never resist "handy" looking boxes of files at 50p or a quid, so I've got quite a selection.

By the way, do you know where I can buy some clench screws. One of my recent saw purchases from ebay has an odd set of screws which I'd like to replace especially if I decide to make a replacement handle for it (longer term project).

Cheapest source of saw screws is RUSTY old saws, preferably with bent blades and woodwormed handles.

Brass screws don't corrode much so you buy the whole thing (or set) for beans, remove the screw, and dispose of the rust, I mean rest.

If the blade is only kinked, but not (too...) rusty, it's a fine source for scratch stock cutters and cabinet scrapers.

BugBear

 

[Argus]

The handle wobbles a little, so if I can't remove the screws, should I try to insert a small sliver of veneer in the slot behind the blade. It desperately needs jointing and sharpening; the tooth pitch is 16 tpi so it should be easier to sharpen than the DT saw.

Saw handle screws are notoriously difficult to remove and being brass, very soft and easy to ruin.

Assuming that you have a correctly shaped screwdriver to engage the twin slots, try this tip for shifting stubborn screws. (Hope I’m not teaching you to suck eggs).

After anointing the whole screw thread with penetrating oil, leave it all for a day or two and wipe clean.

Next, you need a piece of circular bar about the same diameter as the screw head – you can use an old bolt for this. It’s important that the end is filed dead flat, because you need a good clean contact with the flat head of the screw.
Hold the saw down, then you heat the tip of the bolt, not red hot, but to a good temperature. With some pliers, carefully stand it end on at the screw head, hold it there for a minute and take it away. Repeat once or twice. Allow the lot to cool down naturally and see if the screw will shift; very often the act of expanding the bolt with heat will break any dirt / rust bond on the threads. You may need to repeat the exercise several times.

If you get the handle off, a week or ten days soak in teak or linseed oil in a plastic bag will often restore weight that has dried out over the years it was left unused. In this way you can probably get a good fit back on the blade slot.

.

 

[Routermonster]

Thanks Argus

I'll give this method a try.

Les

 

[Argus]

.

Try it.... please let me know if it works. It has for me on several occasions.

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