Tenon saw is not sawing coplanarly

[tibi]

This does not look like a very bad cut to me, in fact pretty decent in a board that thick.
I agree with others that the tape is not very helpful, personally I like a pencil line if its a light timber, on something like black walnut a knife line is easier to see.

If the saw is always drifting the same way then it can be adjusted by lightly stoning the teeth with a whetstone to bring them both to an even set, though I don`t know the exact details of this.
I have been a convert of the Japanese saw for any fine work for a long time now, I seem to get better results with them.

Ollie

Thanks Ollie,

I have read that Japanese saws are harder to master, as they will go off the cut quickly if you do not have proper technique. I am using this technique of stoning the set with a diamond stone. My saws all cut relatively straight, but this issue got much better when I started to cut alternatively from both sides. Something like in the picture below.

 

[Jacob]

Thanks Ollie,

I have read that Japanese saws are harder to master, as they will go off the cut quickly if you do not have proper technique. I am using this technique of stoning the set with a diamond stone. My saws all cut relatively straight, but this issue got much better when I started to cut alternatively from both sides. Something like in the picture below.
View attachment 145383

Very confusing drawing!

 

[IWW]

.....Years and years ago I remember reading somewhere that one was advised to set a piece in the vise so that the line to be sawn to was vertical. Yet another propagated myth. It makes no difference at all.....

Actually, it can, especially when you are a beginner. Lots of texts (& no less a person than Bill Carter) will tell you to set the workpiece so the cut line is vertical. One tends to forget how much practice it takes to saw perfectly straight & to a line & anything that helps initially is good in my book. The old cabinetmaker who mentored me half a lifetime ago used to talk about "sawing to the line" (by which he meant sawing a hair's breadth to the waste side), & "splitting the line", literally sawing down the middle of a knife-line. Both unachievable concepts when I began, but second nature now. Likewise, sawing "right hand side, waste side" (for right handers) is mandatory at first, but after a bit you can saw accurately from either side. It took me a few years & lots of practice to be able to make both cuts for tails without moving the workpiece (a la Tage Frid).

What deema said about too-fine teeth clogging & causing slow, erratic sawing can indeed happen, especially if the saw is forced &/or dull or the wood has a high MC (or is one of those oily, sticky types like Olive). Putting too much weight on the saw is a common fault, even with the moderately experienced, and a dull saw invites extra pressure. Combined, that's a sure recipe for wavy cuts. But if the blade is long enough, teeth sharp & well-set, & your stroke adequate, a 12tpi saw should handle material up to 75mm wide with no problems. A classic 'mistake' I see in people new to sawing is making too-short strokes so the teeth don't fully clear the wood on each side.

As several folks have advised, sawing down along the lines back & front can help, but even that will involve some practice to get both cuts to align accurately & not leave a ridge on the face of the cut. "Practice makes perfect" according to the old adage. I've been using saws for over 60 years, I'm not quite perfect yet, but if I live to 150, I think I just might get there......

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hello gentlemen,

I am now making a saw bench with hand tools only. I have found an issue with my tenon saw. It is not sawing coplanarly. I have started to saw big dovetails for the bench. The top cut is square to the face and the front cut follows the line. The angle is the same on both front and back tape. The back cut wanders off to the side.

I had the same issue when cutting these boards to length. The top and front edges were square and the back and bottom edges wandered off. The board is 120x40 mm. Is it possible to get such big cross section right out of the proper tenon saw or the shooting board is always necessary? I just cannot get it coplanar, so I always err to the waste side and then finish off with the shooting board for square cuts. For dovetails, I would need to pare off the back side and it would save me a lot of time, if I could get it right from the saw.

Interestingly, when cutting square small cross sections, like 20x50mm, I can get it right off the saw without the shooting board.

Thank you fo

With thicker sections, there are two methods you can use.

The first is to always follow two adjacent lines, and never just one line.

The second is to reduce the thickness of the wood …

On a separate note, someone asked where the blue tape method came from. This was first published by myself as a method for making dovetail marks easier to see with aging eyes. It was copied 2 years later by Pekovich on FWW magazine.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[tibi]

With thicker sections, there are two methods you can use.

The first is to always follow two adjacent lines, and never just one line.

The second is to reduce the thickness of the wood …

On a separate note, someone asked where the blue tape method came from. This was first published by myself as a method for making dovetail marks easier to see with aging eyes. It was copied 2 years later by Pekovich on FWW magazine.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thank you Derek, if your idea gets "stolen" it means that it must work .

 

[tibi]

Well, here are the results of the first dovetail joint of the sawbench (not my first dovetail joint). This is a dry fit, as I need to disassamble it and cut tenon on the other side of the leg and a through tenon for a stretcher on the leg.

Top view. Other than the gap on the left, I am satisfied. There is a little crack forming at the right base of the middle pin in the tailboard.

Side view: The baseline is a little under, but I will clean it up during the final assembly and it should seat flush. A small chip broke off during the paring. I will fill it during the glueup.

To conclude, I am pretty satisfied with the joint, taking into account my inexperience. It is not a fine furniture level, but slowly I might get there. However, I have 3 more DT joints to cut. They could be slightly better or much worse. But I will cut from both sides as rogxwhit advised.

Thank you all.

 

[tibi]

Very confusing drawing!

I agree with you Jacob on this. He has highlighted the part that is being removed from the cut at the current stage. He should have drawn a saw plate instead and it would be much more understandable. But it was the only picture that I could find quickly that describes the technique.

 

[Jacob]

One of the less obvious features of freehand sawing is that forcing an off-line saw to follow a line, or two lines, is what tends to send it off even more.
I wonder if practicing freehand would be best place to start and to get the feel of using a saw. The aim being to get a loose and hence straight ("co-planar") cut with a freely moving saw, by hand and eye, even if it's not quite where you want it to be.
You still have to mark through the pinholes for the pins and work to those marks, but this accommodates any errors in the preceding pin hole cuts and freehand DTs may look better than expected

 

[G S Haydon]

That's very acceptable work for a first attempt and self instruction. You'll go far.

 

[tibi]

That's very acceptable work for a first attempt and self instruction. You'll go far.

Thank you. This is not my first attempt, as I made maybe 6 - 10 dovetail joints in my life (no more than 20 pins and tail sets). But I never cut into such thick material before.

 

[Ttrees]

Being a hobbyist myself, I'd have no issue with some transferring if needed with
such large joints, in hardwood, to a furniture standard,
as that looks like it might be a battle to assemble with glue applied.

Did you make a wee chamfer on the underside, or is that why you got the chip out?

 

[Ttrees]

A question for sawyers relating to the above scenario,
Guessing a progressive pitch filed saw might be problematic for such thick stock.?

 

[Jacob]

Just another detail: it's important to saw the tails so that the cut reaches right down to the shoulder line. Normal practice is to over-cut to varying degrees - a lot if you are in a hurry, barely visible if careful
It makes cleaning out the corners a lot quicker, easier and neater.

 

[Jacob]

A question for sawyers relating to the above scenario,
Guessing a progressive pitch filed saw might be problematic for such thick stock.?

Problematic for the saw sharpener and not necessary for any stock.
Thick stock need longer saw and fewer t.p.i. so that sawdust gets carried through and dropped off. i.e.less "dovetail" saw more general purpose tenon saw.

 

[Ttrees]

Just another detail: it's important to saw the tails so that the cut reaches right down to the shoulder line. Normal practice is to over-cut to varying degrees - a lot if you are in a hurry, barely visible if careful
It makes cleaning out the corners a lot quicker, easier and neater.

Charlesworth mentioned the release cut for this, no more than a half mm, in the forbidden direction.
This closes up again compared to the fibers being severed pared on the baseline.

 

[rogxwhit]

There is a little crack forming at the right base of the middle pin in the tailboard.

Hey, this is looking pretty good!

Refering to that split - after the cutting and when you start fitting the parts together, develop a sense of the friction between the parts and where it might be too much and needs easing before you tap things fully home. The more practice you get at cutting, the more confidence you will have, and the less trimming will be needed.

 

[Jacob]

Charlesworth mentioned the release cut for this, no more than a half mm, in the forbidden direction.
This closes up again compared to the fibers being severed pared on the baseline.

Well he would make it sound complicated!
Over cutting is just normal practice and can be seen in nearly all hand cut DTs in old furniture.

 

[Ttrees]

Problematic for the saw sharpener and not necessary for any stock.
Thick stock need longer saw and fewer t.p.i. so that sawdust gets carried through and dropped off. i.e.less "dovetail" saw more general purpose tenon saw.

I don't disagree, but what I was questioning if thick stock like above might be the very reason why some fall out with progressive pitch, and nothing to do with the sharpening of it.

Well he would make it sound complicated!
Over cutting is just normal practice and can be seen in nearly all hand cut DTs in old furniture.

Goalposts looks to be moving on in regards to traditional stuff for some folk.
we don't see clinched nails that much these days,
although admittedly I had to utilize this to make a little dolly recently,
it was not out of choice.

 

[Jacob]

...

Goalposts looks to be moving on in regards to traditional stuff for some folk.

More a case of forgetting how things are done and having to reinvent them.

we don't see clinched nails that much these days,

Exactly. Another useful technique just about forgotten. You can nail up and finish a ledge brace and battened door in about 10 minutes if you use the trad technique.

although admittedly I had to utilize this to make a little dolly recently,
it was not out of choice.

What, somebody made you do it?

 

[tibi]

Being a hobbyist myself, I'd have no issue with some transferring if needed with
such large joints, in hardwood, to a furniture standard,
as that looks like it might be a battle to assemble with glue applied.

Did you make a wee chamfer on the underside, or is that why you got the chip out?

Yes,I made the chamfer on the underside. There might have been some wood defect, so that is why it splitted off. But I do not know for sure.