Taking a plunge to kitchen cabinet making

[thomashenry]

Just to emphasis my previous point, someone has posted up how they fitted their fridge, which is great if you have bought a slider door fridge, completly different if you use door on door. There are many different appliances, most are fairly standard but you need to research them before buying to ensure you have the right ones. Just do your reseach on installation.
I prefer door on door cooling appliances as they are bigger internally than a similiar slider model, and look more integrated.
I've been doing kitchens for 20 odd years now, there is no right or wrong way, I've seen them all. However over that 20 years we have refined our methods and the way they are built and installed. I think a lot of guys who do a one off kitchen over complicate thing big time.

Sure, there is that type of integrated fridge too. The reason I posted the diagram of the fridge is that someone had asked about how do do an integrated fridge with in-fame doors (rather than the more common frameless style). This implies butt hinges (at least it should...), so I think a sliding door mechanism is the only way to go for this scenario.

 

[doctor Bob]

Sure, there is that type of integrated fridge too. The reason I posted the diagram of the fridge is that someone had asked about how do do an integrated fridge with in-fame doors (rather than the more common frameless style). This implies butt hinges (at least it should...), so I think a sliding door mechanism is the only way to go for this scenario.

No it's not, I do this day in and day out, 25-35 kitchens a year, door on door works perfecrly well in a framed kitchen as well, if you know how to do it, thats all we do. I'm not looking for an arguement, I'm simply saying, look really closely how appliances work. there are a multitude of ways to do stuff.

 

[thomashenry]

Sure, there is that type of integrated fridge too. The reason I posted the diagram of the fridge is that someone had asked about how do do an integrated fridge with in-fame doors (rather than the more common frameless style). This implies butt hinges (at least it should...), so I think a sliding door mechanism is the only way to go for this scenario.

No it's not, I do this day in and day out, 25-35 kitchens a year, door on door works perfecrly well in a framed kitchen as well, if you know how to do it, thats all we do. I'm not looking for an arguement, I'm simply saying, look really closely how appliances work. there are a multitude of ways to do stuff.

How do the cabinet door's butt hinges work if it is stuck on to the fridge door? Not arguing, just curious! I figured it was impossible to hang the cabinet door on butt hinges with door-on-door.

 

[Beau]

Made ours from birch ply. Not difficult as such if you keep it simple but as it's custom there is a temptation to complicate matters to suit the space. Building the cabs was quick but painting them with multiple layers of varnish seemed to take forever. Never used pocket hole screws but do they not have a tendency to offset the joints when you tighten the screws? If so that would be right PITA. I used biscuits on ours and was surprised how many faces you could just screw through from the outside as they would get covered by another cabinet. The few faces that were left on show I did sash clamp and biscuit them together. Have fun with the build

 

[thomashenry]

Made ours from birch ply. Not difficult as such if you keep it simple but as it's custom there is a temptation to complicate matters to suit the space. Building the cabs was quick but painting them with multiple layers of varnish seemed to take forever. Never used pocket hole screws but do they not have a tendency to offset the joints when you tighten the screws? If so that would be right PITA. I used biscuits on ours and was surprised how many faces you could just screw through from the outside as they would get covered by another cabinet. The few faces that were left on show I did sash clamp and biscuit them together. Have fun with the build

Yes they do! You need to clamp the joint really well in all dimensions before driving the screws, otherwise it will move.

 

[johnnyb]

I remember building something kitchen cabinets from birch ply and three screws in each part with some green resign after taking the screws out I had to beat the cabinet apart such was the strength of the glue alone! Try it. After that I thought dados( housings )are a pointless exercise.

 

[thomashenry]

I remember building something kitchen cabinets from birch ply and three screws in each part with some green resign after taking the screws out I had to beat the cabinet apart such was the strength of the glue alone! Try it. After that I thought dados( housings )are a pointless exercise.

Useful for alignment and accuracy when assembling though, gives you something to register your sheet against.

 

[D_W]

I think a lot of guys who do a one off kitchen over complicate thing big time.

That may well be true, but even without that problem they're still going to be painfully slow compared to an experienced kitchen guy.

I'm a full time furniture maker with a professionally equipped workshop, but whenever I do fitted work, or something in sheet goods, it always takes me twice as long as I expected. When I did our kitchen my wife was tearing her hair out at how slow it was. Even if I do something laughably straightforward like this router table,


I'll still lose a good hour or two just trying to remember how I last fitted drawer runners.

Sheet goods don't automatically equal "quick and easy". Unless you're doing this stuff all the time there's still loads to figure out, and no shortage of things to go pear shaped!

I'm not advocating this for anyone else, but working one-off without a workflow planned, I found it just as fast to do all of the post sheet goods cutting work by hand. I had battens set up to use a plunge router for everything that couldn't be done accurately on the router table (e.g., laying out sheet goods and cutting dados across the back and sides - they have to all line up for obvious reasons).

For my last cabinet, I modified an old dado plane to match the plywood and the amount of hassle was far less. the work was a little bit more physical, but more controlled.

I won't talk specifically about time - I did a lot of my dimensioning by hand (ripping, thicknessing, jointing, etc) and did all of the face frame work mortise and tenon. For me to spend time with a bunch of fasteners or industry gimmicks, it would've taken just as long and I hate gimmicks.

 

[thomashenry]

I think a lot of guys who do a one off kitchen over complicate thing big time.

That may well be true, but even without that problem they're still going to be painfully slow compared to an experienced kitchen guy.

I'm a full time furniture maker with a professionally equipped workshop, but whenever I do fitted work, or something in sheet goods, it always takes me twice as long as I expected. When I did our kitchen my wife was tearing her hair out at how slow it was. Even if I do something laughably straightforward like this router table,


I'll still lose a good hour or two just trying to remember how I last fitted drawer runners.

Sheet goods don't automatically equal "quick and easy". Unless you're doing this stuff all the time there's still loads to figure out, and no shortage of things to go pear shaped!

I'm not advocating this for anyone else, but working one-off without a workflow planned, I found it just as fast to do all of the post sheet goods cutting work by hand. I had battens set up to use a plunge router for everything that couldn't be done accurately on the router table (e.g., laying out sheet goods and cutting dados across the back and sides - they have to all line up for obvious reasons).

For my last cabinet, I modified an old dado plane to match the plywood and the amount of hassle was far less. the work was a little bit more physical, but more controlled.

I won't talk specifically about time - I did a lot of my dimensioning by hand (ripping, thicknessing, jointing, etc) and did all of the face frame work mortise and tenon. For me to spend time with a bunch of fasteners or industry gimmicks, it would've taken just as long and I hate gimmicks.

I agree entirely. When I look back at the total time I've spent on woodworking projects, the amount of time I actually spend working the wood with a tool is not the dominant factor. Probably spend most of the time standing around figuring out what to do :mrgreen:

So saving a minute by using a circular saw to cut a sheet of plywood, rather than use a handsaw - it doesn't really make much difference. If I'm not doing repeated cuts, then the handsaw is probably faster as the setup time is so much less. I packed away my table saw, power router, jigsaw, chopsaw etc earlier in the year, and I've not missed them yet.

 

[Mark Begbie]

A little tangential, but any feedback on how pocket hole screws work in standard MFC?

 

[custard]

A little tangential, but any feedback on how pocket hole screws work in standard MFC?

Not great.

Neither MDF nor Melamine Faced Chipboard take fastenings particularly well, but of the two chipboard is probably the worst. When a screw fails in MDF it tends to just strip the threading, so a bit of epoxy in the hole will give you a second attempt. But when a screw fails in MFC it often tears out a chunk of material and fractures the melamine facing. It's not impossible, but go very carefully and let the glue take the strain, so the screws are really just acting as cramps while the glue sets.

 

[Sideways]

When we bought a kitchen many years ago and I realised that it would have to be chipboard on grounds of cost, we chose cabinets which were bonded together by injected nylon joints running the full length of all the major corners. Strictly a factory production technique . I've never regretted spending that bit extra on the boxes. Extremely stong. We have wall cabinets that have supported a substantial weight of crockery for > 25 years and look almost as good as the day they went in. I don't like chipboard but assembled with modern methods like this I've been impressed with ours.
So why not :
Buy good carcasses, CNC cut for accuracy at a speed you can never match with hand work and a precision that takes some effort to match.
Put your time, effort and skill into the bit that will be on display and carries the price premium - the doors
?

 

[thomashenry]

When we bought a kitchen many years ago and I realised that it would have to be chipboard on grounds of cost, we chose cabinets which were bonded together by injected nylon joints running the full length of all the major corners. Strictly a factory production technique . I've never regretted spending that bit extra on the boxes. Extremely stong. We have wall cabinets that have supported a substantial weight of crockery for > 25 years and look almost as good as the day they went in. I don't like chipboard but assembled with modern methods like this I've been impressed with ours.
So why not :
Buy good carcasses, CNC cut for accuracy at a speed you can never match with hand work and a precision that takes some effort to match.
Put your time, effort and skill into the bit that will be on display and carries the price premium - the doors
?

This is ok for overlaid doors, but if you want the shaker style in-frame doors on butt hinges, you need to make the cabinets too.

 

[tomatwark]

This is ok for overlaid doors, but if you want the shaker style in-frame doors on butt hinges, you need to make the cabinets too.

Why?

You make up face frames, and fit them to the front of the carcases

 

[thomashenry]

This is ok for overlaid doors, but if you want the shaker style in-frame doors on butt hinges, you need to make the cabinets too.

Why?

You make up face frames, and fit them to the front of the carcases

You could do that, but how do you attach them? I wouldn't be happy screwing into chipboard.

 

[doctor Bob]

This is ok for overlaid doors, but if you want the shaker style in-frame doors on butt hinges, you need to make the cabinets too.

Why?

You make up face frames, and fit them to the front of the carcases

You could do that, but how do you attach them? I wouldn't be happy screwing into chipboard.

Buscuits, dominos, splines, lamello clicks, pocket holes, endless way of fixing.

 

[thomashenry]

You could do that, but how do you attach them? I wouldn't be happy screwing into chipboard.

Buscuits, dominos, splines, lamello clicks, pocket holes, endless way of fixing.

Into carcasses made from chipboard? To fix face frames from which doors will be hung? Not my idea of quality work.

 

[tomatwark]

try pocket screwing a frame onto a mfc carcase see how difficult it is to force off, you are not screwing into the chipboard, you are screwing into the face frame

Then try hanging the door and trying to force it off, I bet the hinge will pull out before the frame comes off.

Pocket screwed face frames are the pretty much the standard way of fixing face frames in the industry.

I do them this way and probably a lot of others on here do as well

 

[thomashenry]

try pocket screwing a frame onto a mfc carcase see how difficult it is to force off, you are not screwing into the chipboard, you are screwing into the face frame

Then try hanging the door and trying to force it off, I bet the hinge will pull out before the frame comes off.

Pocket screwed face frames are the pretty much the standard way of fixing face frames in the industry.

I do them this way and probably a lot of others on here do as well

It's how I made my kitchen as well, but with plywood cabinets, not chipboard. At the end of the day, if you are doing for a customer, and they are happy with MFC cabinets, go for it I suppose. Perhaps it's my personal distaste for MFC that's clouding my judgement.

 

[memzey]

You could do that, but how do you attach them? I wouldn't be happy screwing into chipboard.

Buscuits, dominos, splines, lamello clicks, pocket holes, endless way of fixing.

Into carcasses made from chipboard? To fix face frames from which doors will be hung? Not my idea of quality work.

FYI if you’d like some good examples of top quality work in kitchen making then I recommend looking up some of doctor bob’s previously posted examples. They are as good as I have ever seen.

On the topic of MFC - how much do people pay for 18mm Egger boards around the country? I’m down in St. Albans and have accepted the request of SWMBO that new kitchen cabinets should be my winter project. I was going to go with MDF or ply but this thread has dissuaded me (sorry in advance for the digression).