Table Saw kickback and trimmed finger (Graphic description & images)

[Luckosaurous]

I think this video demonstrates kickback quite well.......

That’s on a table saw, I was asking about his views on push sticks on the planer.

Edit: I’ve just realised your post may have not been a response to mine

 

[Doug71]

Full length fence, no crown guard. Properly adjusted crown guard would have stopped the piece lifting and then the blade pushing it back

And I'm guessing no riving knife.........

 

[Jacob]

.I thought that you were supposed to apply downward pressure on the outfeed,

I used to think that too but changed my mind, see below.

......What’s the reasoning you suggest push sticks instead,

1 Puts your hands further away from the blades. If anything goes wrong the push stick gets it instead of your fingers.
2 Gives you a longer reach so you don't have to lean so far forwards, but if you need to you can reach forwards and flip offcuts away from the blade etc.
3 Longer reach means you can choose where to put your left push stick - generally near the middle of the board keeping an even downwards pressure without the board rocking. Your right hand push stick just pushing horizontally. Lots of variations of course.

are planers prone to kickback that pulls the hand onto the blade?

No not at all but it's easy to drop your hand off the edge or the end - see various accounts above.

PS with left pushstick pressing down near the middle of a board, and inwards slightly (friction), and right stick pushing horizontally, you can plane a bendy twisted board either face down and it makes little difference, concave/convex/twisted etc

 

[RogerS]

Not read the whole thread but in the OP, mention was made of using a power feed on the table saw. It has its disadvantages. Think abiout it.. when you feed by hand, you are in tune with the sound of the saw. Is it struggling ? Is the kerf starting to bind because the two parts are closing up due to internal stresses. Feeding by hand, it's second nature to ease off. The power feed does not have that comprehension.

 

[Luckosaurous]

I used to think that too but changed my mind, see below.

1 Puts your hands further away from the blades. If anything goes wrong the push stick gets it instead of your fingers.
2 Gives you a longer reach so you don't have to lean so far forwards, but if you need to you can reach forwards and flip offcuts away from the blade etc.
3 Longer reach means you can choose where to put your left push stick - generally near the middle of the board keeping an even downwards pressure without the board rocking. Your right hand push stick just pushing horizontally. Lots of variations of course.

No not at all but it's easy to drop your hand off the edge or the end - see various accounts above.

PS with left pushstick pressing down near the middle of a board, and inwards slightly (friction), and right stick pushing horizontally, you can plane a bendy twisted board either face down and it makes little difference, concave/convex/twisted etc

I’m struggling to see it tbh, but then as I’ve said I’ve never actually used one before so I can only go off what I’ve seen in YouTube (hardly the greatest of sources).

I can see a case for using a push stick on the infeed side, though maybe a long stick with a hook on the end to pull the workpiece towards you whilst you’re stood on the outfeed side may be better? But I’m struggling to see how you can exert downward force on the outfeed with a long stick due to leverage. Surely you would have to push harder to get the same downward pressure and youd struggle to make sure the pressure was even from the fence side to the near side?

 

[Jacob]

I’m struggling to see it tbh, but then as I’ve said I’ve never actually used one before so I can only go off what I’ve seen in YouTube (hardly the greatest of sources).

I can see a case for using a push stick on the infeed side, though maybe a long stick with a hook on the end to pull the workpiece towards you whilst you’re stood on the outfeed side may be better? But I’m struggling to see how you can exert downward force on the outfeed with a long stick due to leverage. Surely you would have to push harder to get the same downward pressure and youd struggle to make sure the pressure was even from the fence side to the near side?

I'll try and do a photo tomorrow. Might not be possible as we are moving Friday and packing like maniacs!

 

[Hornbeam]

I’m struggling to see it tbh, but then as I’ve said I’ve never actually used one before so I can only go off what I’ve seen in YouTube

You really need to get a proper hands on experience with an experienced operator to get a proper feel for what is happening. arm chair critiquing (please dont take offence) does cover the practicalities of this kind of job. YouTub contains some excellent advice as well as some total carp unfortunately not in equal measure so treat with care.

 

[Cobbs]

So, Barbara T, how're you fingers doing? Hopefully starting to heal a bit?

 

[Luckosaurous]

You really need to get a proper hands on experience with an experienced operator to get a proper feel for what is happening. arm chair critiquing (please dont take offence) does cover the practicalities of this kind of job. YouTub contains some excellent advice as well as some total carp unfortunately not in equal measure so treat with care.

I’m not armchair critiquing, I was asking a genuine question. I can’t understand what he’s describing, or if I can then I can’t fathom how he would be able to plane a board flat using long push sticks as I can’t see how they would be stable enough.

I do at some stage (in the distant future) intend to buy a planer, so if his method is safer, then I want to have it in my knowledge bank ready for when I do.

 

[BarbaraT]

So, Barbara T, how're you fingers doing? Hopefully starting to heal a bit?

Honestly, after two weeks in there still hurt like f***.
I've got a steroid cream to try and reduce the hyper granulation, I've got a doctors appointment to get some stronger painkillers..
Physio appointments to improve flexibility and appointments with the district nurse to keep an eye on how it's healing.

If we're not shying away from painful pictures..




Safety-wise
I will never buy another table saw without SawStop / PCS technology, At some point I will upgrade, just can't afford to right now.

I've bought a second-hand power feed. I'm going to add a magnetic base to allow some more flexibility. I'm also hoping to use it with the router table.

I'm also planning on improving the clamping on the sliding table of the Panel saw with concentric clamps and a plate with lots of holes in modifying the sliding table. The clamp needs to be super quick and bombproof

I also want to add two zero-clearance inserts to the tabletop to reduce the chance of anything getting stuck while feeding it through. (one at 0 degrees and one at 45 degrees.

I'm hoping this will cover 95% of the cuts I do, and allow me to stand miles away, The other 5% I can do with the plunge saw.

I will make a range of push sticks and keep them to hand... but don't plan on going within arm's length of the blade.

 

[BarbaraT]

PS Does anyone know how the Felder PCS works, I'm guessing they have got around the 100 SawStop patents.. or paying festool royaties
I just wish they would stop waving there fingers around in the video.

 

[Sideways]

Unsure how the detection works but they use a motor or some such to pull the spindle downward very quickly. Unlike sawstop nothing is damaged or consumed, no explosive cartridges, it resets afterwards and you can carry on. I imagine more sophisticated that sawstop overall and probably more expensive.

 

[worn thumbs]

We should thank BarbaraT for the update and I sincerely hope that the thread will be read by novices before they discover the same pitfalls.The graphic images may help with that.I hope the new painkillers do the job.

 

[Cobbs]

Honestly, after two weeks in there still hurt like f***.
I've got a steroid cream to try and reduce the hyper granulation, I've got a doctors appointment to get some stronger painkillers..
Physio appointments to improve flexibility and appointments with the district nurse to keep an eye on how it's healing.

If we're not shying away from painful pictures..

Actually, you fingers look like they're doing OK healing wise, though I can appreciate I'm not the one feeling the pain or having to adapt. I hope you can get some decent pain relief and it's good to know that this hasn't put you off the wood work. Hopefully you'll be back to it soon...

 

[Bruce Mack]

Barbara - If your finger is painful to light touch or "zings" spontaneously, you may have neuropathic pain. Ask your doctor about gabapentin or its derivatives. These may lessen the pain during healing. They are not addictive or habit forming.

 

[BarbaraT]

I can't give up... I've got a kitchen to build. (The plan was to have it finished by Christmas... )

Dovetailed draws...

Doors

Cabinets

 

[paulrbarnard]

I can't give up... I've got a kitchen to build. (The plan was to have it finished by Christmas... )

Dovetailed draws...
View attachment 171697
Doors
View attachment 171696
Cabinets
View attachment 171698

Coming along nicely

Hope you can get back to it soon

 

[Jacob]

PS Does anyone know how the Felder PCS works, I'm guessing they have got around the 100 SawStop patents.. or paying festool royaties
I just wish they would stop waving there fingers around in the video.

Sawstop if you must but still need to get handy with the old push sticks as you will encounter other machines and you need develop an aversion to having your hands too close, until it becomes a reflex.

 

[Spectric]

You must get a safe working mindset, safety starts with you and buying gimmicks like the sawstop will only make the saw safe so when you use the P/T what then, that can remove other fingers and cause more pain. With the sawstop, then knowing it has the safety feature might just make you take more risk until one day you just happen to be using the saw and the safety feature has failed or using a different saw when more pain.

 

[BarbaraT]

Sawstop if you must but still need to get handy with the old push sticks as you will encounter other machines and you need develop an aversion to having your hands too close, until it becomes a reflex.

With this logic you could argue that airbags kill drivers, Life rafts sink boats and your safer to remove all the guards from the saw and hold the wood between your teeth when cutting... Stop you getting careless when your face is next to the blade.

I've always used a push stick towards the end of a cut in my right hand, I was holding a push stick when I cut my left hand.
I made the wrong assumption that my left hand was far enough from the blade that it was safe, It was sat on the table applying minimal pressure to the wood.

I've never had a kickback even move my left hand.... Quite how it managed to push my hand into the blade I will never know.
I had no near misses... it isn't a very big gap

I used the saw again for the first time today since the accident and I don't think I will ever forget... I can't imagine it not scaring me.
I've always found it a scary tool..

If I have one more thing that has to go wrong before I manage to chop off another finger I can't see that it's a bad thing.