Table saw advice please...

[weirdbeardmt]

Dear all,

Have often used these forums (thanks to the google) for various advice... but now need to ask for some help. Apologies that this is probably asked all the time! I've spent some time searching about and whilst there is some stuff, a lot of it is a few years' old so...

It's time to upgrade my table saw. I've been using a basic Ryobi beginner-y saw for a while but now in the market for something bigger and more capable... and definitely something with a decent fence!

My budget is the sort of £1k mark and whilst it is definitely only hobby use and will only be infrequent I'm inclined to spend a bit now on something that will last a good while. But generally speaking I'm not a total beginner but have lots to learn. Projects are pretty varied, but tending towards the smaller 'tactical' projects (e.g. outdoor furniture, picture frames, boxes etc.) rather than fine furniture. Ripping sheet goods would be handy although I generally do this with a circular saw at present.

I'm in the Channel Islands so eBay etc. isn't really an option for me (due to delivery) so it's likely to be a new machine. There's one shop over here who are a distributor for Record Power and Scheppach but that's about it. So I'm also somewhat limited to the companies who are prepared to ship to me and accepting that this alone is crazy expensive (around £200.) My workshop at present is currently a single car garage so size/space is also a definite consideration, although I am hopeful that at some point in the next year or so we'll either move house that has a decent space or else I'll bite the bullet and rent some dedicated space... so I don't want a total monster machine, but a sort of mid-level cabinet machine with a wheel kit ought to be about right.

On that basis, I think I've got it narrowed down and would be grateful for any real life experience and advice as to what's likely to suit me.

Upfront, I've ruled out Scheppach... you seem to get a lot for your money but have concerns over the build quality - am I right about this?

The three that I've shortlisted are all pretty similar in terms of capabilities and features.. 10" blade

Charnwood W650: charnwood/products/product/p10-professional-cast-iron-table-saw-w650-w650/category_pathway-179

Pros: Lots of kit for the money (including crosscut carriage...), small footprint, fence with micro adjust looks good, 3hp motor ought to handle anything I can throw at it, cheapest of the lot, wheel kit extra £50
Cons: not sure... can't find much about Charnwood in terms of quality, only a 1 year warranty

£949.

Record Power TS250C: recordpower/product/ts250c-10-cast-iron-cabinet-makers-saw-with-right-hand-extension#.WgMmi0ycbmI

Pros: well known solid British brand? (Not that Charnwood isn't... discuss!), micro adjust fence... there is a local dealer who could support it if it went wrong.. wheel kit is £80... think i read somewhere it's a 5 year warranty?, could add the sliding extension things after if I needed them...
Cons: no crosscut carriage? (would need to build one... but seems there's only a T slot on one side of the blade?) 2hp motor vs 3hp of Charnwood... most expensive of the lot (maybe)

£999.95

Axminster AW10BSB2: axminster/axminster-trade-series-aw10bsb2-saw-bench-ax884465

Pros: Axminster well known reliable brand... same power as Charnwood? (2.2kw), wheel kit £60, fence *seems* to be best of the lot, heaviest of the lot (pro)
Cons: Not sure... heaviest of the lot (con)... slightly shorter cut depth at 90deg than the other two

£925 (although the extra kit/carriage etc. is punchy.)

So anyway. On balance, they're all very similar. Would be very grateful for any thoughts/advice/experience/help (or total alternatives if I've missed something!)

Many thanks!

 

[Bodgers]

A bit more but worth looking at the Scheppach Precisa 3. If you can get it without the slider it's about within budget

Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk

 

[transatlantic]

There is also this which might be of interest

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-tr ... saw-508339

 

[weirdbeardmt]

A bit more but worth looking at the Scheppach Precisa 3. If you can get it without the slider it's about within budget

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Thanks... I did look through the Scheppach catalogue I got from the local shop, and the Precisa stuff did look nice. Unfortunately, the only Scheppach stuff I've seen in person is the flimsy garbage you can get in B&Q etc. which put me off a bit... but I guess that's mostly true of all manufacturers who do a budget range.

 

[weirdbeardmt]

There is also this which might be of interest

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-tr ... saw-508339

Hmm, that looks to be a great shout.

 

[MikeJhn]

smaller 'tactical' projects (e.g. outdoor furniture, picture frames, boxes etc.)

For those types of project I would suggest a decent sliding cross cut saw may be more useful, unless you have problems sourcing sized timber and have to rip down bulk piece's. I do a lot of picture framing and the table saw does not get used, its bandsaw, planer thicknesser, possibly back to the bandsaw, router table, cross cut saw and mitre guillotine all from logs.

If the table saw is what you decide you definitely need then go for whatever you can get bits for, not that any of them go wrong often. Axminster gets my vote as their customer service is second to none, posting/courier to France does not phase them.

Mike

 

[Eric The Viking]

I'm with Mike.

A table saw gives you accuracy above all else, with smoothness of cut possibly secondary. So they're really good for smaller precision projects, like decorative boxes, etc.

For precision cutting of sheet goods, a rail-saw ("plunge saw") is unbeatable, and there are plenty of good-value ones to choose from. It also takes up very little space and makes hardly any mess, and if you want to you can take it to the job, rather than having to bring the job into the workshop. Nowadays using a small, general purpose table saw for breaking-down sheets has to be a bad idea - awkward single-handed, and arguably dangerous if you aren't very careful. And they need a lot of space all around them to move the sheets about. Consider getting a "pegboard" table (or table top), too. They work as an assembly/clamping table too, but most importantly, your cuts will be dead-on square (or 45 degrees or whatever). Mine came from CNC Designs, and with the dogs it's excellent value (don't know if they will ship to the Channel Isles though). IMHO, the Festool "MFT" one is pricey for what it is, but it is well thought out and offers a bit of extra functionality.

I use my mitre saw a lot, both for cutting to dimension and accurate mitres. Nuff said.

You could get all three things: Mitre saw, rail saw and 4ft rails, and an MFT-type table (not Festool!), probably close to your 1000 budget...

E.

 

[weirdbeardmt]

Hi Mike / Eric

Many thanks for your comments and input, really useful.

I have a sliding compound mitre saw... it's an old 8" green Bosch that I picked up second hand a while ago. It seems pretty true and I've had some good results with picture frames etc. That's definitely on the replacement list at some point... I like the look of the newer e.g. blue Bosch mitre saws with the articulating arm (rather than the 'rails' or whatever you'd call them) so that its footprint is considerably reduced. (But eyewatering price, tho, for the Bosch at least.)

At the moment I use an Evolution circular saw with a Kreg guide for cutting large sheets to approximate size. This works pretty well (esp. as I more often than not need to do it outside given lack of space in my garage.) After umming and erring about building one, a few months ago I bought a router table kit from Rutlands... Xact jobby with the motor and lift mechanism. The table itself isn't great but the motor and lift is excellent. This has released my little Bosch palm router (which was previously mounted in my current table saw) for handheld stuff.

I don't have a bandsaw at all though so that's also on the list for some point...! (In fact given the cost of shipping stuff here, it's basically a pallet service, I may end up getting this at the same time to save on overall shipping costs.)

I guess my main reason for wanting to upgrade the table saw now is to have more confidence in long cuts that might awkward with the circular saw. e.g., taking off the bevels on 2x4s, and possibly cutting thin strips for experimenting with inlays etc, and cutting rabbits/dados etc for drawers. (I can do this on the router table but table saw seems at least to be a more widely used technique for this according to YouTube....) The fence and riving knife on my current saw is really inaccurate (I think) and I haven't figured out a good way of resolving it. Plus the t-track on it is non-standard as far as I can tell (it's an odd shaped track) so creating jigs for it is a bit of a nightmare.

I will have to research the exact terminology you used though to make sure I'm on the right page.

Thanks again for your advice!

 

[user22161]

I have the 10" 01332 saw from iTech, which is exactly the same as the SIP but cheaper, very happy with it. I see they have one ex display at the moment.

https://www.scosarg.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=01332

 

[weirdbeardmt]

I have the 10" 01332 saw from iTech, which is exactly the same as the SIP but cheaper, very happy with it. I see they have one ex display at the moment.

https://www.scosarg.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=01332

Thanks! Have asked for a price. That fence looks excellent!?

 

[MattRoberts]

It's the same machine as the axminster AW10, so yeah it's pretty good

 

[Eric The Viking]

Hi Mike / Eric

Many thanks for your comments and input, really useful.

I have a sliding compound mitre saw... it's an old 8" green Bosch that I picked up second hand a while ago. It seems pretty true and I've had some good results with picture frames etc. That's definitely on the replacement list at some point... I like the look of the newer e.g. blue Bosch mitre saws with the articulating arm (rather than the 'rails' or whatever you'd call them) so that its footprint is considerably reduced. (But eyewatering price, tho, for the Bosch at least.)

Get a good new blade (I like Freud ones, personally, but there are loads of quality alternatives). If it's not horribly worn, its cut quality will improve amazingly.

At the moment I use an Evolution circular saw with a Kreg guide for cutting large sheets to approximate size. This works pretty well (esp. as I more often than not need to do it outside given lack of space in my garage.)

In which case you'll have more space than you know what to do with if you use a rail saw instead! Just sayin'.

I guess my main reason for wanting to upgrade the table saw now is to have more confidence in long cuts that might awkward with the circular saw. e.g., taking off the bevels on 2x4s, and possibly cutting thin strips for experimenting with inlays etc, and cutting rabbits/dados etc for drawers. (I can do this on the router table but table saw seems at least to be a more widely used technique for this according to YouTube....)

Both the first two are better done with a bandsaw (doesn't need to be big or expensive - see Peter Millard's YouTube channel). But honestly, trimming 3mm off stock at each side, as a matter of course is pretty wasteful both of time and materials (don't forget: you pay for the rough sawn dimensions and the cost of machining it!) and you ought to be able to get material without the arrises taken off in the first place - even in the Channel Islands (surely?).

Dados: router, for safety, accuracy, and so on (quite a long list).

Aside: Americans dominate woodworking on YouTube; Americans have a 'tablesaw culture' (and they usually have a lot more space than we do); Americans also have a 'nobody tells me what to do' culture, and they apply this to guns and workshop safety. You'll still come across videos where standard safe practice in Europe and Canada is treated as if it's a novel idea. American "emergency rooms' probably have a collection of fingers, thumbs and larger bits (or at least a bin to put them in), and possibly offcuts they've pulled out of people.

Rail saws, circular saws with home-made guides, handsaws, even powered jigsaws (for rough dimensioning): all are safer for breaking down 8x4 sheets than a small table saw if you are working on your own in a relatively small space. The cut off a railsaw is good enough to use without further cleanup. And every one of them is a lot cheaper than a decent table (cabinet) saw.

If you want a new tablesaw, that's one thing. If you want the best tools for the tasks you mention, a tablesaw isn't it.

Sorry: I'm getting a bit preachy, but what you're writing is a bit disturbing. Yes, you can do what you say with a TS, obviously, but I certainly wouldn't (although I've got one), and I hope I've explained why above.

E.

 

[MikeJhn]

In the Channel Islands what do you call the grey fluffy things that run around fields, perhaps Rebates? Did not know the Americans had populated the Islands off our coast.

Seriously Rebates and Dado's for the safe option should be done on a Router table, the problem I perceive is that you wish to cut down 8 x 4 sheet material to practice with, this would tend to implicate that this is a short term objective, with the right stable lead in and out extension tables, and a decent blade any table saw will do this once set up correctly and stabilised.

All of my bench's, router table and even the planer thicknesser are the same height as my table saw they are all on castors so can be manoeuvred into the required position to allow them to be used as extensions, the one thing that transformed cutting down sheet materials was the JessEm stock guides, they have a 5deg slant towards the fence to prevent movement whilst cutting, they work excellently, also don't underestimate the amount of dust and debris that come off any of this type of equipment, it needs to be collected some how.

Mike

 

[user22161]

cutting rabbits/dados etc for drawers. (I can do this on the router table but table saw seems at least to be a more widely used technique for this according to YouTube....)

Unlike US saws, most UK saws need multiple passes for rabbets/dados as arbours are too short to take dado stack or wobble blade. The 01332 I have has this problem. I sometimes make a few passes and then clear out with router plane.

 

[weirdbeardmt]

Sorry: I'm getting a bit preachy, but what you're writing is a bit disturbing. Yes, you can do what you say with a TS, obviously, but I certainly wouldn't (although I've got one), and I hope I've explained why above.
E.

Hi Eric. Don't worry, no offence taken, I'd always prefer a no-BS answer and appreciate the time you took to set out your points. Although slightly alarmed to hear that what I've written is 'disturbing'!

Although there does seem to be an over emphasis on ripping sheets etc. which I alluded to as being handy but not an absolute requirement nor the majority of what I do. Last year I built a storage cabinet for under the stairs (e.g., shoes, and other random odds and sods) out of one sheet of ply and did the cutting entirely with the circular saw.

I've had a look at rail saws / track saws and forgive my ignorance, but that generally seems to be a circular saw with a track/guide to run through? I'm totally open to that as a solution to ripping sheet goods.

But are you saying that if you wanted to put e.g., a bevel on the edge of a long piece, you would use a bandsaw for that with the piece angled, as opposed to running the piece through a table saw with the blade on the saw angled?

Following your earlier comments, I had already been looking at whether the bandsaw is right now the better addition to my workshop and to make do with my current table saw. I've only been doing this 18 months or so (and that's infrequently on the weekends as normal life / work / kids allows etc). I'm afraid there's not much of a woodworking community here and the local college stopped their course on it due to lack of interest so freely admit that the source of what little knowledge I do have comes from YouTube and yes that is dominated by the Americans and why, I'm sure, e.g., most of the joinery I've done so far is with pocket holes which is obviously popular with them. But if I want to experiment with e.g., box joints etc., again much of the videos shows doing this on the table saw with a jig which is what's led me to thinking I need a better table saw.

I also freely admit I'm a bit of a tool hound which may make me look like 'all the gear no idea' etc. rather than being more innovative with the tools I already have. But in this case I absolutely don't want to spend £1k or so on a tool I really don't need, so I do appreciate your advice and have taken it on board.

 

[weirdbeardmt]

In the Channel Islands what do you call the grey fluffy things that run around fields, perhaps Rebates? Did not know the Americans had populated the Islands off our coast.

Seriously Rebates and Dado's for the safe option should be done on a Router table, the problem I perceive is that you wish to cut down 8 x 4 sheet material to practice with, this would tend to implicate that this is a short term objective, with the right stable lead in and out extension tables, and a decent blade any table saw will do this once set up correctly and stabilised.

Sorry, I am predominantly a vicarious woodworker through the medium of YouTube which is dominated by the Americans and their terminology. You can blame Steve Ramsey mostly for that but apologies if that does just make me look a dumb n00b.

You and Eric are almost certainly right that I could make do with what I currently have (and/or my money would be better spent elsewhere.) This is my current saw:

which I picked up for £50 from a chap who'd had it in a damp barn for ripping up firewood. I did tidy it up and and put a new blade on with more teeth etc. and it has been OK but the two main issues I have with it are:

1) The fence seems to be useless and impossible to clamp squarely (and using the measure on it is a non-starter.) In the pictures you put up I like the way your fence a) looks bloody solid but also b) appears to be on a rail at both ends of the saw so you have some confidence it's square to the blade.
2) The riving knife doesn't sit squarely behind the blade which always causes an issue when you need to pass through it... I wondered if this was down to the new blade but it's the same width as the old one, and actually putting the old one back in had the same issue. I've not been able to find a way to get it back in to position.

Anyway, they may just be issues that can be resolved (or, alternatively, not a good reason to go and splash a load of cash on a new one) but there we are.

I did get a router table recently so can practice more with that for cutting my bunny rabbits and dodo's. And now looking more along the lines of a bandsaw as per your previous advice.

 

[weirdbeardmt]

OK, so mulling this over a bit more. I spoke to one of the technical people at Axminster who felt the Axminster TS250 Panel Saw over the AW10 would be a good fit for me.

But, for about the same price of a big cabinet saw, I could get (I've linked to Amazon in some places as it's easy, but wouldn't necessarily buy from there)

* A decent track/rail saw with variety of tracks - something like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00J8LANWM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_10?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1

* A bench top bandsaw - something like
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000Y8SDQQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1 or
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-hobby-series-hbs250n-bandsaw-508204 or at a push
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-hobby-series-hbs350n-bandsaw-508206

* And possibly even a new compact table saw with decent fence (to allay any reservations I have about my current saw) and decent blade - something like https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007PB02RI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1 or
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Compact-Si...pID=41zyiRYT3BL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

(or just bin this in preference to a better bandsaw)

* And enough wood to re-organise the garage so that they're all mounted sensibly at the same height etc. and can share an outfeed table etc.

Does that sound like a more sensible plan or is it just flushing good money down the toilet?

Any comments on any of those tools, particularly the bandsaws as I've never bought one before (should I be getting something bigger), would be warmly appreciated.

 

[MikeJhn]

1) The fence seems to be useless and impossible to clamp squarely (and using the measure on it is a non-starter.) In the pictures you put up I like the way your fence a) looks bloody solid but also b) appears to be on a rail at both ends of the saw so you have some confidence it's square to the blade.

The saw I posted is the Axminster TS250 as suggested to you by Axminster with slide table and fence, have a look here for more details: axminster-ts250-2-modifications-t102284.html

Lots of advice available on the Forum re Bandsaws.

Mike

 

[Grawschbags]

OK, so mulling this over a bit more. I spoke to one of the technical people at Axminster who felt the Axminster TS250 Panel Saw over the AW10 would be a good fit for me.

* A decent track/rail saw with variety of tracks - something like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00J8LANWM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_10?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1

A Track Saw is one of these (rather than what you've linked to) - http://www.axminster.co.uk/bosch-gkt-55 ... g-ax872669

I'm giving serious thought to the Axminster TS250 table saw as well. Mike has a really good setup guide that I'll try and find.

I'm also in a single garage, so want something with a small footprint that I can build a mobile base for.

Edit - Here is the link to Mike's guide: viewtopic.php?t=102284

 

[weirdbeardmt]

Thanks... the one I linked to can be used with the bosch tracks, you just have to buy them separately. I liked the idea of that one with it being cordless.

Thanks for the link to the setup guide for that saw, will definitely check it out.