Suggestions for starting again.

[custard]

Staying with practical examples. I wanted to offer something that was more unique and distinctive than the previous Shaker Side Table, but was still relatively quick to make and could sell for below £1,000. I found another Shaker design called the "Harvard Table", here's my version,

By getting jigged up to the eyeballs I tried to get the build time down to 20 hours. I've never quite got there, and it takes me about 25-27 hours to make one. Like the previous side table I can kid myself that it's possible to make two in a week, it is, but only by putting in some overtime and then conveniently ignoring it.

I sell these for £750 in highly figured timbers (and because they're more of a feature piece that's what clients generally go for). It's a profitable item. Profitable not in the sense that it puts me in Russian Oligarch territory, but profitable in that with enough orders I could just keep my head above water. I've been doing these for about three years now, and I must have sold, oooh let me think, all of about seven or eight!

It's hard Mike. You need lots and lots of good ideas, not just one, and the energy to make them happen. Even then you're sprinting just to stand still. It's no wonder that when professional makers get together the first question they always ask is "how many hours did that take?", you can see them tumbling the numbers in their heads and wondering if there was even a snowball in hell's chance of ever turning a profit.

 

[custard]

The main selling point of hand made furniture is the exceptional quality over the mass produced. Lose this and there is little purpose to it.

You and I generally see eye to eye on most things, but I'm going to have to disagree on this one.

The main attraction for the maker is exceptional quality, that's where the satisfaction comes from. But for the client exceptional quality falls some way down the list, I'm convinced of this because I have to point out the evidence of quality to clients all the time, they rarely if ever identify it for themselves.

Higher up the list, in my experience at least, comes things they simply can't get in a high street shop. Things like made to measure sizing, waney edged and slab top construction, unique timbers, innovative finishes, control over styling and design details, etc.

 

[woodbrains]

The main selling point of hand made furniture is the exceptional quality over the mass produced. Lose this and there is little purpose to it.

You and I generally see eye to eye on most things, but I'm going to have to disagree on this one.

The main attraction for the maker is exceptional quality, that's where the satisfaction comes from. But for the client exceptional quality falls some way down the list, I'm convinced of this because I have to point out the evidence of quality to clients all the time, they rarely if ever identify it for themselves.

Higher up the list, in my experience at least, comes things they simply can't get in a high street shop. Things like made to measure sizing, waney edged and slab top construction, unique timbers, innovative finishes, control over styling and design details, etc.

Hello,

I think we still agree, I didn't say quality was the only thing that gives hand made stuff a purpose, all those other things you mention are there too. But a shaker table isn't unique, or necessarily made to measure, so aside fabulous timber, the quality is an important differentiator. Yes, you still have to explain to the client about the quality, they often don't know what it is or how to see it, but if it is not there, they will spot shoddy or underwhelming in a heartbeat and avoid. This is something that most people don't understand, the time consuming 'invisible' touches that no one notices, but often have to be there, because when left out their absence sticks out like a side thumb. Good design is one such thing. No one (few who are not makers, anyway) sees the good design, or aesthetic proportioning in a thing, or appreciates the time and development that went into achieving it. But they know they dislike a bad design when they see it!

I don't know why it should be so hard to make a modest living, from the simple, primal act of making something useful and beautiful. I know cost is part of it, but there are wealthy enough people around that could, without making a significant dent in their bank balances, to buy a few pieces of hand made stuff. But there seems to be a pathological barrier to spending more than their perceived idea of what a thing is worth, and furniture has a very low worth, compared to cars, jewellery, electronics, etc. I'm always amused how a high end car manufacturer often sells their things based on solidity, longevity etc. But most owners keep the vehicles for 3 years!

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

......
Perhaps Jacob might pause in his enthusiastic advocacy for self employed furniture making, and share with us exactly how many Shaker Side Tables he sold, where he sold them, how long it took to make them, and how much he got?

One last point, trying to get the legs for these out of 1" stock is a non starter, you need 1 1/4" minimum.

I sold about a dozen. I made them in 2 batches. £250 each. Mostly recycled mahogany type hardwood. Sold them on-line via my website. Still getting enquiries. They were slightly more elegant than the one in your picture.
This was at the start of my belated furniture making career which would have gone well except circumstances intervened and I ended up doing chapel conversion and a few other things instead. Now semi retired (73 tomorrow!)
Selling is the key thing. Whichever way Mike finally decides to go he will come up against the same problem. The solution for me was DIY website. HTML a bit of a learning curve but after that it's very cheap and highly effective

 

[Jacob]

......... it takes me about 25-27 hours to make one. .....

If they sell off the shelf and not to order then make a batch, get the price right down or the profit right up.
Think like a baker - he might make the occasional wedding cake to order but wouldn't make a loaf or a mince pie one at a time!

 

[tomatwark]

Mike

If you are going to do this you will have to take on the sh*tty jobs as well as the good ones, until you are well known enough to start to turn them down.

As has already been said for kitchens, freestanding or fitted you are up against the bigger outfits who have the kit and staff, and can turn them around.

That said there is still an place in the market for you, as some of the smaller kitchens, part refurbs where you might make something to compliment an existing kitchen are possible, as for the like of us they are quite often more trouble than they are worth.

The advantage you have over us, is although you may not have the kit to produce the stuff as quickly, you do not have the anywhere near the same overheads which have to paid for every month.

I started of in a small workshop with some very basic machinery and have grown the business over the years, I took on everything at the start from windows, doors to kitchens and freestanding and fitted furniture and dropped the things I did not want as time went on and as I got known for what I wanted to do, although there are still things I take on I would not in an ideal world but I have overheads to pay.

One thing I have found is that after about 3-4 years or so have having very little freestanding furniture orders, they are increasing again without us pushing for the work, so there is a bit of a change in customers attitudes.

I am always reviewing things and recently I am being asked by a few local tradesmen to take on work which I had dropped, the size of the orders are seriously making me look at it, the trick is don't set up to do one thing and try to make it work, as sometimes it just won't but something else will.

 

[Mr T]

The truth is that some people are not cut out for being an entrepreneur, which is what you are as a self employed maker. Successful entrepreneurs believe completely that their product is the best thing since sliced bread and can also talk the talk to convince others of this. Many highly skilled makers are unsuccessful because they do not fit this bill. They concentrate all their on the workshop when they should be spending about 20% or more of their time chasing up prospects, advertising and generally putting themselves about. That takes a lot of self belief. I speak from experience, that's why I teach instead of making!

Good luck Mike.

Chris

 

[tomatwark]

The truth is that some people are not cut out for being an entrepreneur, which is what you are as a self employed maker. Successful entrepreneurs believe completely that their product is the best thing since sliced bread and can also talk the talk to convince others of this. Many highly skilled makers are unsuccessful because they do not fit this bill. They concentrate all their on the workshop when they should be spending about 20% or more of their time chasing up prospects, advertising and generally putting themselves about. That takes a lot of self belief. I speak from experience, that's why I teach instead of making!

Good luck Mike.

Chris

Too true.

If I could be in the workshop most of the time I would be, but this afternoon I am sitting in the office drawing and pricing work for next year, Thursday I was on the road most of the day looking at possible work.

You need to fact this in to any overhead calculations as well, as about 25% of the time you will be wasting your time as the customer will say no, but you still need to pay the bills while you are trying to get the work.

If you get everything you price for, you either have a very unique product, or more likely you are not charging enough.

 

[Jacob]

...Successful entrepreneurs believe completely that their product is the best thing since sliced bread.....

A successful entrepreneur can sell any old sh&t he doesn't have to believe in it himself!
Some people are more into some sort of self-righteous moralistic artist/craftsman crusade and blame the punters for not liking their utterly marvellous creations. Good luck to them!
There has to be a happy medium!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

... when they should be spending about 20% or more of their time chasing up prospects, advertising and generally putting themselves about. That takes a lot of self belief. I speak from experience, that's why I teach instead of making! Chris

Chris, I suspect you underplay your own 'putting yourself about' efforts in developing a reputation as teacher in the private sector. Let's see ... there are woodworking shows where you demonstrate, meet old students and meet potential new ones; a book you've written, woodworking magazine articles, your blog, adverts in F&C (I think) so you're definitely out there marketing yourself one way or another to support your teaching business.

I just wish I could offer something positive to Mike. I'm not sure that my own weird and whacky journey around professional furniture making over the decades has much useful experience to guide him. Slainte.

 

[Mr T]

...Successful entrepreneurs believe completely that their product is the best thing since sliced bread.....

A successful entrepreneur can sell any old sh&t he doesn't have to believe in it himself!
Some people are more into some sort of self-righteous moralistic artist/craftsman crusade and blame the punters for not liking their utterly marvellous creations. Good luck to them!
There has to be a happy medium!

You first point may be true Jacob, mentioning entrepreneurs I was thinking of the Dysons of this world rather than just salesmen. Not sure what your second point was other than riding a hobby horse.

I bet you have some interesting arguments when you get down the pub

Chris

 

[Harbo]

http://www.owdman.co.uk/index.htm

 

[woodbrains]

The truth is that some people are not cut out for being an entrepreneur, which is what you are as a self employed maker. Successful entrepreneurs believe completely that their product is the best thing since sliced bread and can also talk the talk to convince others of this. Many highly skilled makers are unsuccessful because they do not fit this bill. They concentrate all their on the workshop when they should be spending about 20% or more of their time chasing up prospects, advertising and generally putting themselves about. That takes a lot of self belief. I speak from experience, that's why I teach instead of making!

Good luck Mike.

Chris

Hello,

You are dead right and you are as likely talking about me not fitting the bill. I do find self promotion hard sometimes, especially person to person. To be honest, this was my failing the last time and why I couldn't make enough and had to stop. I need to try and be better at these things, I know. Does it mean people who don't blow their own trumpet have to be resigned to a crushingly unfulfilling job. If so, it is rather depressing.

Tomahawk, I did take almost everything on when I had a workshop last time; I installed fitted kitchens, laid floors, did some house joinery and door hanging, picture framing, I made packing cases once! I thought this was part of my downfall, the diversity meant it was hard to get fully efficient at anything. I found it difficult to cost jobs too. Someone would come along with any woodwork related thing, but I had no datum for costing something I'd never done, so I was likely undercharging just to make the rent. Conventional wisdom would be to specialise in a narrow field and get efficient and streamlined to maximise costs. If it worked for you, then fine, I'll give it some more thought.

I do think the available local market is bad here, though, so I'll have to reach futher afield. I recounted before a customer I'd done some alcove furniture for before wanting a freestanding bedroom suite. A double column 2 by 5 drawer chest, 2 bedside tables, a dressing table and chair or stool, double wardrobe and blanket chest. Budget £5000 material of choice, American Black Walnut. It wasn't that long ago and she obviously contacted me because she was happy with the alcove stuff is done before. I drew up some designs and couldn't come close to 5 K so quoted 8 which was rejected out of hand. Even using ABW veneered MDF for lots of the carcase material 8 was still low and I fear it would have been another labour of love. This customer was by no means atypical, her Georgian house was something I could only dream about owning.

Jacob, you can't make those side tables for 250 and make any money, You would have to make them in a day from scratch to polish. No wonder you still get enquiries you are practically giving them away. The cherry alone would be 80 quid, more for figured boards and I can't make and fit a drawer with dovetails and slips in much less than a day.

Mike.

 

[Bodgers]

The main selling point of hand made furniture is the exceptional quality over the mass produced. Lose this and there is little purpose to it.

You and I generally see eye to eye on most things, but I'm going to have to disagree on this one.

The main attraction for the maker is exceptional quality, that's where the satisfaction comes from. But for the client exceptional quality falls some way down the list, I'm convinced of this because I have to point out the evidence of quality to clients all the time, they rarely if ever identify it for themselves.

Higher up the list, in my experience at least, comes things they simply can't get in a high street shop. Things like made to measure sizing, waney edged and slab top construction, unique timbers, innovative finishes, control over styling and design details, etc.

Agree with you here. I follow I guy on Instagram (Nick James I think?) and he sells most of his stuff through "notonthehighstreet.com" which kind of says it all.

He seems to do a wide variety of stuff from mid century credenzas to iPhone speaker/stands which he seems to be batching out atm.



Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk

 

[Jacob]

.
Jacob, you can't make those side tables for 250 and make any money, You would have to make them in a day from scratch to polish. No wonder you still get enquiries you are practically giving them away. The cherry alone would be 80 quid, more for figured boards and I can't make and fit a drawer with dovetails and slips in much less than a day.

Mike.

You couldn't make one in a day but you could make 5 in a week. That's the difference between one offing and batches.

 

[doctor Bob]

Love these sort of comments

This was at the start of my belated furniture making career which would have gone well except circumstances intervened

Translation= I made some hobby stuff and sold it for a few bob's profit, years later I think I could have been megs successful if I'd carried on, and if my aunty had bollo!s she'd be my uncle.

Never listen to anyone who has never done it, plenty talk the talk not many walk the walk.

 

[cowfoot]

I’ve made a few variations on that Shaker side table...with the latest being the most simple and taking 15hrs (plus £55’s worth of Ash). So I reckon they could turn a profit, but you’d need to find buyers.
What interests me at the moment is designing a suite of furniture using standardised sizing of components (eg legs, drawers)...then you could mill up lots of timber but not commit to using it until an order arrives.
Don’t mind me, just thinking aloud/online!

 

[woodbrains]

.
Jacob, you can't make those side tables for 250 and make any money, You would have to make them in a day from scratch to polish. No wonder you still get enquiries you are practically giving them away. The cherry alone would be 80 quid, more for figured boards and I can't make and fit a drawer with dovetails and slips in much less than a day.

Mike.

You couldn't make one in a day but you could make 5 in a week. That's the difference between one offing and batches.

Hello,

So what do you do when someone asks for one? Tell them to find 4 other buyers wanting exactly the same or expect them wait till another 4 fill the order books and then charge them the batch price. Or do you charge them the batch price for a one off and make a loss. Or ask the one off price and lose the job. Or make 5 charge the batch price and have 4 left gathering dust and taking up space I don't have, for and even bigger loss.

It is easy to spout this wisdom Jacob but experience tells it different.

Mike.

 

[custard]

the latest being the most simple and taking 15hrs (plus £55’s worth of Ash)...I reckon they could turn a profit

I wouldn't bet your house on it,

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/tabl ... de-tables/

 

[woodbrains]

I’ve made a few variations on that Shaker side table...with the latest being the most simple and taking 15hrs (plus £55’s worth of Ash). So I reckon they could turn a profit, but you’d need to find buyers.
What interests me at the moment is designing a suite of furniture using standardised sizing of components (eg legs, drawers)...then you could mill up lots of timber but not commit to using it until an order arrives.
Don’t mind me, just thinking aloud/online!

Hello,

15 hours is nearly 2 days which is still still a minimum of £400 asking price, made from a rented workshop. A bit different than Jacobs £250. I think 15 hours is a good time, too. Ash is a bit of a marmite timber, especially when is ages to that amber colour. If you can sell these, then good for you. If you can make them out of a more stunning wood, the making time would be the same, though, so why use ash, when figured maple might be double the material cost but sell for a lot more. If you can only sell things based upon the price of the raw materials being lowest, then I think it is a marginal existence.

Mike.