Suggestions for starting again.

[Buckeye]

I compressed/reduced my hours to take a day a week off from my office job (boring job that pays the bills well) to spend a day a week and a Saturday working with a builder friend doing general carpentry jobs for him and working in my own workshop and other more interesting jobs on the days he doesn't need me. This has worked well apart from the fact that the builder friend has needed me nearly all the time so I haven't got working on my own stuff as much as I would have liked however that day of the week is still by far my favourite.

I suppose I am getting at maybe you don't have to quite the day job completely, see if reduced/compressed hours are available?

 

[woodbrains]

.....How high though! Internally 30 sq m is more like 25, building regs measure footprint not floor space and internal ridge height is perhaps 7 ft 6, but roof joists interfere and max is perhaps 6 ft 6 trailing off. My bandsaw stands in the centre line of the shed and grazes the middle joist. It is what I have. I did put my dust extraction in a lean to to gain a little space. I amassed the machinery when I was self employed and did without for a long time, to buy the stuff as I worked along. Now I have it, i'd quite like to keep it, selling reasonable stuff for hobby sized stuff is counter-intuitive if I ever do start professionally in earnest. I take your point about a combined planer/thicknesser, but it will still take up the same space as the planer and the thicknesser I have is on wheels, the gain would be mariginal........

I'm an architect.

Your walls would have to be 250mm thick to reduce your floor area to 25 sq m, and building regs measure internal floor area, not footprint.

Hello,

I know you are being helpful and your advice is much appreciated, but I just might know how big me shed is!
Go on, think about a shed construction that has a footprint of 6 by 5 m but has a 25 sq m internal floor area. Dung wall (log) cabin?? :| In fact the max size shed without planning permission is the one I have, and it is measured to the widest point of the building, which is the roof eaves, so even less floor area. I am actually breaching that by adding the lean to for the dust extractor, shh! Don't tell the neighbours.

This is the cause of my quandary, logic and much wisdom here suggests not to make speculative pieces, but make to commission. Yet the small scale work I will have to stick to will be most likely speculative. I think Jacob is right, I'll just have to make stuff and try to flog it, trying to get commissions along the way, off the back of the speculative stuff. But this is how I failed last time, excepting that I probably didn't market myself as well as I should. This is obviously the area I need to improve.

Kevinlightfoot, I am thinking of negotiating part time so I can get a day or so extra in the shed. But early retirement, or retirement at all is unlikely. A teacher's pension I will not have!

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

.... I'll just have to make stuff and try to flog it, trying to get commissions along the way, off the back of the speculative stuff. But this is how I failed last time, excepting that I probably didn't market myself as well as I should. This is obviously the area I need to improve....

"Making stuff and flogging it" is how almost everything is supplied in the real world. Hardly anything is bespoke. How many things do you "commission" yourself? Me - I can't say I've ever done it in my life!
Off the shelf you don't have to market yourself you market the the things on the shelf - much easier as a rule!
You personally might be utterly unmarketable - no prob as long as you keep out of sight!
The bespoke "commission" idea seems to be the curse of aspiring woodworkers. Most other arts and crafts don't do it at all except for the occasional very special request.

 

[woodbrains]

.... I'll just have to make stuff and try to flog it, trying to get commissions along the way, off the back of the speculative stuff. But this is how I failed last time, excepting that I probably didn't market myself as well as I should. This is obviously the area I need to improve....

"Making stuff and flogging it" is how almost everything is supplied in the real world. Hardly anything is bespoke. How many things do you "commission" yourself? Me - I can't say I've ever done it in my life!
Off the shelf you don't have to market yourself you market the the things on the shelf - much easier as a rule!
The bespoke "commission" idea seems to be the curse of aspiring woodworkers. Most other arts and crafts don't do it at all except for the occasional very special request.

Hello,

I'm surprised you think this, I'm sure the windows me staircases etc. you made were all bespoke! But point taken, I'll have to do what I have to do. I'm going to make an occasional table this weekend and see if that will sell.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

.... I'll just have to make stuff and try to flog it, trying to get commissions along the way, off the back of the speculative stuff. But this is how I failed last time, excepting that I probably didn't market myself as well as I should. This is obviously the area I need to improve....

"Making stuff and flogging it" is how almost everything is supplied in the real world. Hardly anything is bespoke. How many things do you "commission" yourself? Me - I can't say I've ever done it in my life!
Off the shelf you don't have to market yourself you market the the things on the shelf - much easier as a rule!
The bespoke "commission" idea seems to be the curse of aspiring woodworkers. Most other arts and crafts don't do it at all except for the occasional very special request.

Hello,

I'm surprised you think this, I'm sure the windows me staircases etc. you made were all bespoke! But point taken, I'll have to do what I have to do. I'm going to make an occasional table this weekend and see if that will sell.

Mike.

Well yes some things unavoidably have to be fitted but that's not what we are talking about.

NB your table won't sell itself - you have to go through all the motions and try everything. If unavoidable sell it and make a loss or give it to your mother in law. It's all part of the learning curve. :lol:

PS don't make one table make 3 or 4. Economy of scale kicks in very quickly and you do have to take a little risk!

 

[thetyreman]

call me oldschool if you like, but going to craft fairs and events is a good idea, especailly if you can get into places like bramhall, chester, poynton, even parts of wirral, if you are there in person with items ready to sell, I think that's the way forward, the internet is only good if you make a serious investment into a well made website, marketing and sales e.t.c, even then stuff isn't guaranteed to get traction or sell.

 

[MikeG.]

........I know you are being helpful and your advice is much appreciated, but I just might know how big me shed is!
Go on, think about a shed construction that has a footprint of 6 by 5 m but has a 25 sq m internal floor area. Dung wall (log) cabin?? :| In fact the max size shed without planning permission....

I was responding to you saying that Building Regs is based on your building's footprint. It isn't. Now you are saying Planning Permission, which is a very different thing.

Either way, the general point stands......that's plenty enough space to be earning some money making furniture.

 

[woodbrains]

PS don't make one table make 3 or 4. Economy of scale kicks in very quickly and you do have to take a little risk!

Hello,
I would if I had enough wood! I'll make one for now, if it ends up being satisfactory in terms of design and reasonable manufacture, I'll make 4.

Tyreman, as soon as I get enough stuff together, I will do some shows. I have done a few before. They don't always get immediate work, it is often a long game, reinforced by a good website and so forth. I will do some as soon as I can.

Mike.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If you did tables you could do book matched natural edged tops - someone might like the pair, if not much (if not all) of the joinery would be the same from the point of view of time saving anyway.

 

[woodbrains]

If you did tables you could do book matched natural edged tops - someone might like the pair, if not much (if not all) of the joinery would be the same from the point of view of time saving anyway.

Hello,

I've no live edged stuff in at the moment, just some 2 square edge ABW. All 1 inch thick boards. I did some designs for console tables using 1 inch thick boards some time ago; it was an experiment that I tried to see if I could design something with the limitation of not having thicker stock for the legs. I think they worked out well, I still have one table in oak made this way. I think the design will scale down well enough to a coffee table size. I was actually thinking it would work with a live edged top at some point too. I actually have never made any live edged stuff before, in truth, I don't like it. But that won't prevent me from designing such if it will sell; I have designed stuff I didn't like before, but the client loved it, so happy days!

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

If you did tables you could do book matched natural edged tops - someone might like the pair, if not much (if not all) of the joinery would be the same from the point of view of time saving anyway.

Hello,

I've no live edged stuff in at the moment, just some 2 square edge ABW. All 1 inch thick boards. I did some designs for console tables using 1 inch thick boards some time ago; it was an experiment that I tried to see if I could design something with the limitation of not having thicker stock for the legs. I think they worked out well, I still have one table in oak made this way. I think the design will scale down well enough to a coffee table size. I was actually thinking it would work with a live edged top at some point too. I actually have never made any live edged stuff before, in truth, I don't like it. But that won't prevent me from designing such if it will sell; I have designed stuff I didn't like before, but the client loved it, so happy days!

Mike.

Useful tip #1001.
Don't design anything. Always copy something good. Buying one to copy is the easiest way. Nobody gives f#ck about your design ability they just want a nice wotsit.
Worst option of all is designing something you don't like yourself. If anybody else doesn't like it you get the blame.
If people want you to do stuff you don't like tell them to f off, you really don't need customers like that.

 

[woodbrains]

If you did tables you could do book matched natural edged tops - someone might like the pair, if not much (if not all) of the joinery would be the same from the point of view of time saving anyway.

Hello,

I've no live edged stuff in at the moment, just some 2 square edge ABW. All 1 inch thick boards. I did some designs for console tables using 1 inch thick boards some time ago; it was an experiment that I tried to see if I could design something with the limitation of not having thicker stock for the legs. I think they worked out well, I still have one table in oak made this way. I think the design will scale down well enough to a coffee table size. I was actually thinking it would work with a live edged top at some point too. I actually have never made any live edged stuff before, in truth, I don't like it. But that won't prevent me from designing such if it will sell; I have designed stuff I didn't like before, but the client loved it, so happy days!

Mike.

Useful tip #1001.
Don't design anything. Always copy something good. Buying one to copy is the easiest way. Nobody gives f#ck about your design ability they just want a nice wotsit.
Worst option of all is designing something you don't like yourself. If anybody else doesn't like it you get the blame.
If people want you to do stuff you don't like tell them to f off, you really don't need customers like that.

Hello,

You'll have to suggest an existing design for a table that only uses one inch thick boards, then, otherwise I can't make one. I can't think of a classic design that is made like this myself. You've pretty much buggered my weekend, unless you find one for me, or let me design my own.
Mike.

 

[Jacob]

.......
Hello,

I've no live edged stuff in at the moment, just some 2 square edge ABW. All 1 inch thick boards. I did some designs for console tables using 1 inch thick boards some time ago; it was an experiment that I tried to see if I could design something with the limitation of not having thicker stock for the legs. I think they worked out well, I still have one table in oak made this way. I think the design will scale down well enough to a coffee table size. I was actually thinking it would work with a live edged top at some point too. I actually have never made any live edged stuff before, in truth, I don't like it. But that won't prevent me from designing such if it will sell; I have designed stuff I didn't like before, but the client loved it, so happy days!

Mike.

Useful tip #1001.
Don't design anything. Always copy something good. Buying one to copy is the easiest way. Nobody gives f#ck about your design ability they just want a nice wotsit.
Worst option of all is designing something you don't like yourself. If anybody else doesn't like it you get the blame.
If people want you to do stuff you don't like tell them to f off, you really don't need customers like that.

Hello,

You'll have to suggest an existing design for a table that only uses one inch thick boards, then, otherwise I can't make one. I can't think of a classic design that is made like this myself. You've pretty much buggered my weekend, unless you find one for me, or let me design my own.
Mike.

Problems, problems!!
There's that Chris Schwarz classic "shaker" table design kicking around the net. I've made and sold a few of these myself. 1" boards would do it - or an even more delicate version. But some 1 1/2 inch stuff for the legs would make it easier. Go and buy some wood?

PS here it is https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-c ... 4-Seg2.pdf
It's a very nice table. Refinements are possible such as tapering the top edge thinner. They sell - people like them.

 

[petermillard]

Woodbrains

You do seem to be concentrating/fixating on what you can’t do, rather than what you can. My workshop is only slightly larger than yours, and half is given over to storage, so the actual workspace is likely smaller. Ceiling height is less than 8’ - unfortunately...

And yet I run my business from there; it’s a classic one-man-band small business, turning around all the usual fitted furniture of alcove units, bookcases, wardrobes, tv units, cabinets, wine racks, shelving, window seats etc.. etc..

At times it’s absurdly small, but I figure it out. Right now I have a run of three double cabinets with bookshelves above (alcove units essentially, but in a run) as well as a pair of double cabinets on the go. I’ll have to fabricate it, flat-pack it and assemble / fit onsite (no pressure then...) but it’s do-able, even from such a small space. Not easy, but do-able.

Thing is, you seem to have done this kind of work before; so what went wrong? Why did you stop? And is banging out e.g. MDF boxes going to end up as the equivalent of your current job - something you ultimately dislike, and just end up doing for the money?

On a purely personal level, I’d say that if you’re short of time, space and funds, then investing all three in making things to sell speculatively sounds like madness, unless you can actively sell through an established channel e.g. commission sales at a retailer, craft fairs, etsy/‘not on the high street’ type of online shop.

Whatever you do, I hope it works out for you, just remember that you need to be businesslike about it.

If you’re interested in the kind of work I do from a small space there’s a general link to my YouTube channel in my sig, and the workshop tour video is here.

HTH & good luck.

 

[vankou]

Hi Mike

Although a frequent visitor to this site, I rarely feel that I have much to contribute but having worked in Schools (through Caretaking to Premises Management ) for 28 years I do have an understanding of how they work.

I can only say what I would explore if I were in your position. It may be something that you have already thought about or it just might not appeal to you.

Schools normally (yours may be different, particularly if it was built with PFI funding) let/hire rooms out to local groups and clubs. In your position I would be exploring the possibility of hiring the DT workshop a couple of evenings a week and on a Saturday and running a type of Men’s shed where interested individuals from the community can then pay you for the use of a workbench space and access to some tools. You could then offer alongside this one to one tuition for interested parties and perhaps offer machining of timber etc at a moderate cost.Following this through , once you have an interested group or membership you could offer one off seminar days where particular techniques are demonstrated perhaps inviting different Craftsmen to demonstrate all at extra cost to the members. If you can get to the point where renting out bench space pays for the room hire you are then free to spend your time working on your own projects.

Schools are generally receptive to enterprising projects and this would fall in nicely with the concept of life long learning. Who knows if you can attract interest from the Parents of Students already attending the School you may just find that the interest rubs off on to the Students.

I know that if I had to work day in day out from a 25 Metre square shed no matter how much I enjoyed the work or how much I was turning over I would be pulling what little hair I have left out by the end of the first year. If nothing else at least the Local Government Pension Scheme will give you something when you retire.

Any way I hope that this offer an alternative point of view

Cheers

 

[woodbrains]

Woodbrains

You do seem to be concentrating/fixating on what you can’t do, rather than what you can. My workshop is only slightly larger than yours, and half is given over to storage, so the actual workspace is likely smaller. Ceiling height is less than 8’ - unfortunately...

And yet I run my business from there; it’s a classic one-man-band small business, turning around all the usual fitted furniture of alcove units, bookcases, wardrobes, tv units, cabinets, wine racks, shelving, window seats etc.. etc..

At times it’s absurdly small, but I figure it out. Right now I have a run of three double cabinets with bookshelves above (alcove units essentially, but in a run) as well as a pair of double cabinets on the go. I’ll have to fabricate it, flat-pack it and assemble / fit onsite (no pressure then...) but it’s do-able, even from such a small space. Not easy, but do-able.

Thing is, you seem to have done this kind of work before; so what went wrong? Why did you stop? And is banging out e.g. MDF boxes going to end up as the equivalent of your current job - something you ultimately dislike, and just end up doing for the money?

On a purely personal level, I’d say that if you’re short of time, space and funds, then investing all three in making things to sell speculatively sounds like madness, unless you can actively sell through an established channel e.g. commission sales at a retailer, craft fairs, etsy/‘not on the high street’ type of online shop.

Whatever you do, I hope it works out for you, just remember that you need to be businesslike about it.

If you’re interested in the kind of work I do from a small space there’s a general link to my YouTube channel in my sig, and the workshop tour video is here.

HTH & good luck.

Hello,

Thanks for the input, Peter. It is funny, but the written word here often doesn't convey the real feeling behind them, and it might seem that I'm being overly negative when a few consecutive posts answer others questions with 'I can't', but I'm only trying to be realistic. I know my space, and partly the fact I probably have a few too many machines, it will be difficult to make alcove furniture. I accept the suggestion from others that it is a good seller and obviously I am considering all good suggestions. But realistically I know that trying to make 'efficiently' in my space a pair of alcove units for a Georgian house, 8 ft 6 high 3 ft wide and 2 ft deep (a similar job to ones I've done before) is not going to happen. I could make it flat pack to assemble on site. So could Todhunter Davis or Benchmarx et al with their Altendorf panel saws and edgebanders and CNC thingamybobs all within 5 miles of where I am, in one tenth of the time. I need a USP, which is not making the industry standard in an inefficient factory. You are right, making MDF boxes isn't something I'm going to be happy with, if this is all it will be, and I'll not give up an unhappy job without risk, for an unhappy one with risk, I'm not daft.

If I get enough work to sustain a bigger workshop, then obviously built in stuff is something I will do, I did before. What I need is to make this transition, or perhaps not, and continuing to make small scale stuff. But like you pointed out, and I mentioned previously, this sound like making speculatively and trying to sell, which we all know is potential suicide!

And as far as Jacob goes, in amongst the banter, there is some useful advice. He knows I can't make an existing style of side table without thicker stock for legs, unless I design something new. Even if the wood yard was open Saturday, and I bought some timber I'm still not going to make anything until after Christmas and I have dry, acclimatised wood now. I thought I was being positive y not letting only one thickness of board stop me this weekend, although Jacob has somehow turned this into me making excuses.

Mike.

 

[woodbrains]

Hi Mike

Although a frequent visitor to this site, I rarely feel that I have much to contribute but having worked in Schools (through Caretaking to Premises Management ) for 28 years I do have an understanding of how they work.

I can only say what I would explore if I were in your position. It may be something that you have already thought about or it just might not appeal to you.

Schools normally (yours may be different, particularly if it was built with PFI funding) let/hire rooms out to local groups and clubs. In your position I would be exploring the possibility of hiring the DT workshop a couple of evenings a week and on a Saturday and running a type of Men’s shed where interested individuals from the community can then pay you for the use of a workbench space and access to some tools. You could then offer alongside this one to one tuition for interested parties and perhaps offer machining of timber etc at a moderate cost.Following this through , once you have an interested group or membership you could offer one off seminar days where particular techniques are demonstrated perhaps inviting different Craftsmen to demonstrate all at extra cost to the members. If you can get to the point where renting out bench space pays for the room hire you are then free to spend your time working on your own projects.

Schools are generally receptive to enterprising projects and this would fall in nicely with the concept of life long learning. Who knows if you can attract interest from the Parents of Students already attending the School you may just find that the interest rubs off on to the Students.

I know that if I had to work day in day out from a 25 Metre square shed no matter how much I enjoyed the work or how much I was turning over I would be pulling what little hair I have left out by the end of the first year. If nothing else at least the Local Government Pension Scheme will give you something when you retire.

Any way I hope that this offer an alternative point of view

Cheers

Hello,

Thanks Vankou, I have thought of renting the rooms, in fact I did consider it in my last school too. Then the HOD got me to remove all the planing stops and re top all the benches with phenolic laminates so they could no longer be used for proper woodwork! The new school I'm in is, in fact, PFI and as you say, probably not going to happen here. Sorry, I'm sounding negative again! :roll:

Mike.

 

[custard]

There's that Chris Schwarz classic "shaker" table design kicking around the net. I've made and sold a few of these myself. 1" boards would do it - or an even more delicate version. But some 1 1/2 inch stuff for the legs would make it easier. Go and buy some wood?

PS here it is https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-c ... 4-Seg2.pdf
It's a very nice table. Refinements are possible such as tapering the top edge thinner. They sell - people like them.

This is the Shaker Side Table that I make.

I'd starve to death if I relied on these! By burning the midnight oil I can just produce a pair of these in a week (okay, I make the drawers to a much higher standard than the ones in the Chris Schwarz plans so that adds some time, but would you be happy selling something with a plywood drawer box or crepe Schwarz style dovetails?). To hit my financial targets (£1000 gross contribution per week) I have to sell a pair of these for £1200, or £1300-1350 if they're in special timbers like Curly Cherry or Fiddleback Maple. In five years I've only sold about six of these. Incidentally, the majority I do sell are in spectacular timbers at the higher price.

Maybe you're a lot faster at making than I am, but this piece neatly illustrates the dilemma for the independent maker. Do you have ready access to the clients who will pay £600-700 for a side table like this? And if you don't and want to price it lower then exactly how fast can you make them?

Perhaps Jacob might pause in his enthusiastic advocacy for self employed furniture making, and share with us exactly how many Shaker Side Tables he sold, where he sold them, how long it took to make them, and how much he got?

One last point, trying to get the legs for these out of 1" stock is a non starter, you need 1 1/4" minimum.

 

[Bodgers]

Woodbrains, I am not qualified to give you any advice on here at all, but I couldn't help but notice you are getting 15k gross and that you had to negotiate that. Is that full time?

Full time minimum wage at 38 hours a week is 14.8k a year gross.

Personally, I'd say you don't have a great deal to lose if you had to negotiate yourself £200 a year on top of minimum wage.

Whatever you decide to do, If it goes belly up you would have no issue getting back to that level of income IMO.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[woodbrains]

Woodbrains, I am not qualified to give you any advice on here at all, but I couldn't help but notice you are getting 15k gross and that you had to negotiate that. Is that full time?

Full time minimum wage at 38 hours a week is 14.8k a year gross.

Personally, I'd say you don't have a great deal to lose if you had to negotiate yourself £200 a year on top of minimum wage.

Whatever you decide to do, If it goes belly up you would have no issue getting back to that level of income IMO.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hello,

Wow, nothing gets by the posters here. Think school holidays, for which I do not get paid. So, while the school holidays are extra time to spend in the shed, which is a good thing, my pro rata salary is something else. Also, local authority hours has been harmonised to 36 1/2 a week I think. So that makes a difference annually.

Custard, I have made similar tables as you illustrate and I concur that the hours spent making and the finished sale price were virtually identical. I suspect many makers of similarly high standards achieve startlingly similar outcomes. What is certain, only reducing quality would get those tables made with any meaningful saving of time, but not enough to reduce the selling price to make them easier to sell, with the customers acceptance of the reduction in quality, if that makes sense. The main selling point of hand made furniture is the exceptional quality over the mass produced. Lose this and there is little purpose to it.

Mike.