Phill05
Established Member
It's a joy to see and read of your extremely talented work keep it up please, I am more interested in the carving side but your explanations of how you get there is also needed.
Stuff for my BA submission in August. AKA Welcome to The Dark Side.
- Thread starter Adam W.
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mrpercysnodgrass
Established Member
First class work. Well done.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
We'll get to the carving side soon and you can all have a giggle as I fumble my way through it. And judging by the caliber of the audience I'm going to have to up my game.
I do look at all your websites btw and it's top drawer work.
I do look at all your websites btw and it's top drawer work.
Cooper
Established Member
This is all fascinating please keep posting.
Perhaps a silly question but are you very strong or is there special technique? I split small logs to turn and have had enormous difficulty making any headway until the split is nearly done. I had a real struggle with short (40cm) pieces of Oak of about 30cm diameter, you are dealing with much longer lengths.
Thanks
Martin
Perhaps a silly question but are you very strong or is there special technique? I split small logs to turn and have had enormous difficulty making any headway until the split is nearly done. I had a real struggle with short (40cm) pieces of Oak of about 30cm diameter, you are dealing with much longer lengths.
Thanks
Martin
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
A lot of it depends on the selection of the timber, which is why I've spent so much time going on about it.
Species also plays a large part in it too. What timbers are you splitting apart other than oak ?
Species also plays a large part in it too. What timbers are you splitting apart other than oak ?
Cooper
Established Member
Hi thanks for the reply, I find quite a lot of stuff being removed from neighbours gardens, by tree fellers. If there is a piece I think may make a little bowl I get a few logs. I've been working on Bay, as I mentioned what I would call American Oak (the leaves are more spiky than the Turkey Oak in my garden) Turkey Oak and the other day some Holly. I haven't started on the Holly yet and any advice would be very welcome. With the Bay several logs produced lovey radial splits but getting the split to cross the centre takes, for this old bloke, a lot of effort.
Cheers
Martin
Cheers
Martin
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Er, well. That's mostly above my pay grade.
I'm pretty sure you won't get much result from trying to split holly and small diameter oak doesn't seem to split very well either and I think that it might be because the tree hasn't matured enough and you're fighting against a higher proportion of the fibrous juvenile wood than I am with larger stems. Most of the stuff I go for is 2' or over in the center, so those stems I chose were a good 2 1/2' at breast height.
I do try to use wedges as much as possible and the Sessile oak is known for its riving qualities and is used a lot for wainscott work because of that.
I'm pretty sure you won't get much result from trying to split holly and small diameter oak doesn't seem to split very well either and I think that it might be because the tree hasn't matured enough and you're fighting against a higher proportion of the fibrous juvenile wood than I am with larger stems. Most of the stuff I go for is 2' or over in the center, so those stems I chose were a good 2 1/2' at breast height.
I do try to use wedges as much as possible and the Sessile oak is known for its riving qualities and is used a lot for wainscott work because of that.
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Adam W.
A Major Clanger
I'm going to cover a couple more defects to look out for and if you can avoid them, your experience will be a lot more rewarding.
To take the guesswork out of riving panels, it's important to know what piece to go for and what to avoid.
The two pieces on the left have splits in them which bend around. This is where the rays are, but on these pieces they are curved instead of straight. As the best results are achieved by splitting along the rays, which are a point of weakness that we exploit, it's best to avoid stuff like this for good face work.
They should be OK to use as secondary faces like backs or floors of furniture, but expect to be producing firewood and you won't be disappointed if you manage to squeeze a panel or two from it.
The pieces on the right are better, as the rays are straight.
!!Anorak alert!!
I want to explain what the rays are. Their technical name is ray parenchyma cells and they grow in sheets within the xylem under the phloem (wood and bark to you and me). All trees have them and they are food storage cells which the tree draws on in times of stress . In some species they are more pronounced than others and there are two types which produce figure. Medullary rays, which emit from the centre of the stem and intermediate rays which are laid down in the spaces between them as the stem increases in girth.
There's also tyloses which is found within the cell structure of the heartwood and is produced by the ray parenchyma bursting through the cell wall. It looks like that squirty foam stuff that comes in a can if you look at it under a magnifying glass. Checking for the presence of tyloses is the easiest way to distinguish white oak from red oak, as red oak doesn't have it.
Read Desch and Dinwoody Timber - Structure, Properties, Conversion and Use. if you want to delve further into this fascinating subject.
The next piece has straighter rays, but it's dished in the middle. This won't produce a flat panel, but you can get around it by splitting a thicker section off and hewing and planing it flat. I can't guarantee that it will stay flat when it dries out and it will have sloping and reversing grain too.
Rive along the splits for an easier life.
This is the stuff you want, however. Its straight and flat and the rays are flat too. That splits nice, but oddly it comes from a tree which was grown on a steep slope and is normally something I would avoid as the tree has a lot of tension and compression (reaction wood) in it and tends to bow and split open when sawn into boards.
It's not the straightest parenchyma but I wanted wide panels and it's what I had, so I took a chance.
It splits lovely, even though it has been hanging around on the ground for over 10 years, and the panels look great.
Straight, flat and thin, nice.
To split this stuff from a wedge of timber into panels is the job of the froe, beetle and brake.
Put the froe in the centre of the piece, give it a wack on the back with the beetle....
place it in the brake and pull down, but take it easy as you might need to try and steer the split......
which I'll talk about later.
To take the guesswork out of riving panels, it's important to know what piece to go for and what to avoid.
The two pieces on the left have splits in them which bend around. This is where the rays are, but on these pieces they are curved instead of straight. As the best results are achieved by splitting along the rays, which are a point of weakness that we exploit, it's best to avoid stuff like this for good face work.
They should be OK to use as secondary faces like backs or floors of furniture, but expect to be producing firewood and you won't be disappointed if you manage to squeeze a panel or two from it.
The pieces on the right are better, as the rays are straight.
!!Anorak alert!!
I want to explain what the rays are. Their technical name is ray parenchyma cells and they grow in sheets within the xylem under the phloem (wood and bark to you and me). All trees have them and they are food storage cells which the tree draws on in times of stress . In some species they are more pronounced than others and there are two types which produce figure. Medullary rays, which emit from the centre of the stem and intermediate rays which are laid down in the spaces between them as the stem increases in girth.
There's also tyloses which is found within the cell structure of the heartwood and is produced by the ray parenchyma bursting through the cell wall. It looks like that squirty foam stuff that comes in a can if you look at it under a magnifying glass. Checking for the presence of tyloses is the easiest way to distinguish white oak from red oak, as red oak doesn't have it.
Read Desch and Dinwoody Timber - Structure, Properties, Conversion and Use. if you want to delve further into this fascinating subject.
The next piece has straighter rays, but it's dished in the middle. This won't produce a flat panel, but you can get around it by splitting a thicker section off and hewing and planing it flat. I can't guarantee that it will stay flat when it dries out and it will have sloping and reversing grain too.
Rive along the splits for an easier life.
This is the stuff you want, however. Its straight and flat and the rays are flat too. That splits nice, but oddly it comes from a tree which was grown on a steep slope and is normally something I would avoid as the tree has a lot of tension and compression (reaction wood) in it and tends to bow and split open when sawn into boards.
It's not the straightest parenchyma but I wanted wide panels and it's what I had, so I took a chance.
It splits lovely, even though it has been hanging around on the ground for over 10 years, and the panels look great.
Straight, flat and thin, nice.
To split this stuff from a wedge of timber into panels is the job of the froe, beetle and brake.
Put the froe in the centre of the piece, give it a wack on the back with the beetle....
place it in the brake and pull down, but take it easy as you might need to try and steer the split......
which I'll talk about later.
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Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Feel free to ask questions as I go along.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
What do I do if I'm on my last bit of good oak and I want a 5" muntin, but if I rive it along the rays I'll only get a 3" piece after it's planed ?
By splitting across the rays, you'll end up with a section which looks something like a rift sawn piece.
Rift sawing is a way of converting timber on a mill which looks something like quater sawn. It won't give you the spectacular figuring of true quatersawn, but it does produce a section of timber which is as dimensionally stable as you can get.
So if you've got yourself a decent piece of timber, it's worth trying this and creating stuff for stock instead of throwing it on the woodburner. I'll hew the sapwood off that last little bit and make it into a triangular section.
This will up your yield of quality joinery timber to a percentage which would make a sawmill owner blush.
The last bit will be good for carving picture frames, as they often taper like that. Also this outer piece of the tree, just under the sapwood, is usually the best piece of timber as the annual ring per inch count increases the further you get away from the pith as the tree increases in girth.
This timber is much milder to work than the faster grown timber of smaller diameter trees, but it usually gets thrown away by the mill as slab.
By splitting across the rays, you'll end up with a section which looks something like a rift sawn piece.
Rift sawing is a way of converting timber on a mill which looks something like quater sawn. It won't give you the spectacular figuring of true quatersawn, but it does produce a section of timber which is as dimensionally stable as you can get.
So if you've got yourself a decent piece of timber, it's worth trying this and creating stuff for stock instead of throwing it on the woodburner. I'll hew the sapwood off that last little bit and make it into a triangular section.
This will up your yield of quality joinery timber to a percentage which would make a sawmill owner blush.
The last bit will be good for carving picture frames, as they often taper like that. Also this outer piece of the tree, just under the sapwood, is usually the best piece of timber as the annual ring per inch count increases the further you get away from the pith as the tree increases in girth.
This timber is much milder to work than the faster grown timber of smaller diameter trees, but it usually gets thrown away by the mill as slab.
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@sgiandubh Classic Hand Tools - Old Tools & Clearance - Uncle Albert
Best laugh all month. thanks for the tip!
Just come across this thread. It maybe your wood is too dry? Riving is usually done on wood with 30% moisture content on young wood, sounds like you are scavenging freshly cut trees, but have they dried out?
Thank you for this fascinating set of articles, I've just read it from start to this one no 70. I've wondered how riven timber was properly prepared, only really read about it from a furniture perspective. really good read, I look forward to learning some more.
If I'd seen this a few weeks ago I'd have got the axe out as my neighbour has just felled 4 mature trees - very tall - a beach that had hollowed, and x rayed, an Ash with nothing wrong other than the tree surgeon wants all ash trees felled, and a properly dead plane and a maple out the back. He has about 20 mature trees running along the bottom of his garden onto Kirkby road. He has, on average, one removed about every 3 years, all condemned by the local tree surgeon. The first one about 15 years ago ended in a big row with Harrogate council as they refused permission but being a lawyer, neighbour informed the council that they were now responsible should a branch fall into the road. Since then they have rolled over. In my view the tree surgeon condemns a tree when he is in need of a big job. Some involve climbing up and removing all the branches for £5000 a go. The last lot, he got a cheaper set of guys to take the trees down. He kept the branches for fire wood and the lads kept the trunks. Even my neighbour felt the Ash tree was in fine form. As far as I can tell there is no dieback and the canopy looked fine. I'll pock over and see what is left of his wood pile, I think the lads left the trunk at the back as there was a row as to how much wood they took away and they had to drop some back.
I see you have just joined the forum, lots of typing. good luck with your BA. its 40 years since I did mine, in those days people were sniffy about degrees and non degrees qualifications, i'm glad that these historic skills are getting proper recognition. My colleagues in work are building robots that will replace so many skilled professions that we will need to find ways to preserve how things were done, especially as you need great understanding to do work properly by hand. Thanks again Tom
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Thanks for bothering to read it and for your reply.
I'm on my third degree at the moment and all have proven very useful in a practical sense, I guess its the only way to learn these types of things these days. Not that the carving degree has anything to do with timber conversion though, and it's not even taught, except when I start to rattle on about it
I've been converting wood for 25 years and it's the only way I know of getting exactly what I require to make sure my work is historically correct, not that it matters much to most people. Now I just want to pass it on to people who I think could also benefit from my learning as I have the time at the moment.
My friend reckons I'm going to become a professor of woodchips when I'm done studying.
I'm on my third degree at the moment and all have proven very useful in a practical sense, I guess its the only way to learn these types of things these days. Not that the carving degree has anything to do with timber conversion though, and it's not even taught, except when I start to rattle on about it
I've been converting wood for 25 years and it's the only way I know of getting exactly what I require to make sure my work is historically correct, not that it matters much to most people. Now I just want to pass it on to people who I think could also benefit from my learning as I have the time at the moment.
My friend reckons I'm going to become a professor of woodchips when I'm done studying.
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Only just picked upon this thread! Brilliant stuff.
Jeez... that is amazing work, well done! Bravo! You've got a job for life with that fine workmanship. Amazing 
Roy James Martin is a fantastic carver I follow on Instagram - but i think you have edged it - no pun intended!
Roy James Martin is a fantastic carver I follow on Instagram - but i think you have edged it - no pun intended!
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
I wanted some wide and quite thick panels for the front of the chest, so I cut a slice off this stem which has been hanging around for at least 14 years. I bought it as one long stem for £30 per cubic meter, which is firewood price.
It was too big for the mills and weighed about 4 tonnes. The timber crane had to drag it along the road and through the gate to get it into the yard and I've been chopping at it ever since.
It has been living under trees and all the sapwood has been eaten by the bugs and it has some nice brown streaking because it has started to decay, but inside it's beautiful and still full of moisture.
I needed to get the big saw out for this one and there's no way I'm going to buck this stuff up by hand.
You can see that the pith is off center and it's the fat side where I planned to get the panels from.
It splits alright, but was a bit wiggly.
Not being a huge fan of measuring, I just offered it up to the frame for size and if it's too big, then it's just the right size.
Initially I lay out the outside dimensions of the chest on a rod and that's where the measuring ends. All the other stuff is scribed and eyeballed. I use a square on the outside though, as I don't want a wonky piece of furniture.
I've done enough framing to be confident with dealing with odd sized, out of square and tapering timber sections and close enough is good enough.
The flatness of the face and sides is crucial, so is square on the outside, but the rest can just sit where it lands.
So it's to the stump and hew away until I get the twist out, make it flat so it sits on the bench and take it down to a rough thickness. Then I dress the back with a scrub plane and finish the front, make the sides parallel and it's ready for carving.
As it's still very wet, I put it out in the wind for 3 weeks whilst I get on with something else like carving the frame of the chest.
None of this wood is seasoned and it dries out as I carve away at it and because I've been careful in choosing the stems and all the pieces are straight riven sections, I'm confident that the chest won't wrack when it dries out.
See the mortice at the far end is too large, that's where I changed my mind on the design. It's not an issue as all the joints are pegged and the panels sit in a trench where that mortice is.
The members of The Worshipful Company of Joiners and Ceilers had a fit when they saw it, but I'm not worried as this isn't modern joinery and that mortice could be the whole length of the stile for all I care. All that matters is that the shoulder of the tenon on the underside sits against something solid, the panel fills it all up anyway. Plus having baggy mortices makes it's easier to pull apart, as the whole thing gets taken apart and put together countless times.
Modern joiners eh! Far too worried about airtight tenons.
As the saying goes "You should be able to drive this stuff together with your hat."
It was too big for the mills and weighed about 4 tonnes. The timber crane had to drag it along the road and through the gate to get it into the yard and I've been chopping at it ever since.
It has been living under trees and all the sapwood has been eaten by the bugs and it has some nice brown streaking because it has started to decay, but inside it's beautiful and still full of moisture.
I needed to get the big saw out for this one and there's no way I'm going to buck this stuff up by hand.
You can see that the pith is off center and it's the fat side where I planned to get the panels from.
It splits alright, but was a bit wiggly.
Not being a huge fan of measuring, I just offered it up to the frame for size and if it's too big, then it's just the right size.
Initially I lay out the outside dimensions of the chest on a rod and that's where the measuring ends. All the other stuff is scribed and eyeballed. I use a square on the outside though, as I don't want a wonky piece of furniture.
I've done enough framing to be confident with dealing with odd sized, out of square and tapering timber sections and close enough is good enough.
The flatness of the face and sides is crucial, so is square on the outside, but the rest can just sit where it lands.
So it's to the stump and hew away until I get the twist out, make it flat so it sits on the bench and take it down to a rough thickness. Then I dress the back with a scrub plane and finish the front, make the sides parallel and it's ready for carving.
As it's still very wet, I put it out in the wind for 3 weeks whilst I get on with something else like carving the frame of the chest.
None of this wood is seasoned and it dries out as I carve away at it and because I've been careful in choosing the stems and all the pieces are straight riven sections, I'm confident that the chest won't wrack when it dries out.
See the mortice at the far end is too large, that's where I changed my mind on the design. It's not an issue as all the joints are pegged and the panels sit in a trench where that mortice is.
The members of The Worshipful Company of Joiners and Ceilers had a fit when they saw it, but I'm not worried as this isn't modern joinery and that mortice could be the whole length of the stile for all I care. All that matters is that the shoulder of the tenon on the underside sits against something solid, the panel fills it all up anyway. Plus having baggy mortices makes it's easier to pull apart, as the whole thing gets taken apart and put together countless times.
Modern joiners eh! Far too worried about airtight tenons.
As the saying goes "You should be able to drive this stuff together with your hat."
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Hi Adam, just found your thread and I'm going to have some interesting reading when I can look at it on my PC.
In my youth I was a time served carpenter & joiner and have recently taken up woodturning & green wood carving. I've found the whole subject & practice of turning trees into useable timber fascinating. To the extent that I've spent more time processing rather than making.
I'll be reading your posts with great interest.
In my youth I was a time served carpenter & joiner and have recently taken up woodturning & green wood carving. I've found the whole subject & practice of turning trees into useable timber fascinating. To the extent that I've spent more time processing rather than making.
I'll be reading your posts with great interest.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Excellent, I look forward to hearing about it.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
These wavy patterns are from epicormic growth, which deflects the grain pretty much to the pith. In this example there is a small cluster in the upper segment and the lower one mirrors it.
This is the inside surface of the back of the chest before the panels are finally dressed with the scrub/fore plane, which gives a historically correct and very beautiful undulating finish.
All the panels on the back show distorted grain and this is perfectly acceptable for a secondary surface on this kind of work.
You can also see the finish from the axe and that the muntin on the left isn't square. These are all typical surface finishes seen on historic chests and can be used to date furniture. I've left one surface on the chest showing a modern finish, but you can't see it unless you turn it upside down.
There's quite a contrast between primary and secondary surfaces in this type of work and it would probably be unacceptable today to have such rough work on the interior or backs of furniture.
When it's finally pinned together the joints on the outside will close up tight, but there will always be a gap on the inside at the tenon shoulder to accommodate any movement as the timber dries out.
The adze isn't used on panel work, as it's the job of the broad axe to dress the surface and an adze would be impractical to use on such small surfaces.
I think that's about it for the moment and I'll finish off this part when I've completed the chest and pin it together.
I hope I've managed to make it understandable so far and that it's easy to read. I apologise if the grammar is a bit random at times.
Cheers, Adam.
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