stile & rail without gaps - help with design

[MikeG.]

By gluing the opposite side to the stile, and allowing everything else just to float. Unless all the panel pieces are rebated and the stiles & rails grooved, this couldn't possibly work, because it would involve sitting the un-glued, un-pinned panel in a rebate and just hoping that it stayed there.

 

[woodbloke66]

It's not unusual to have a panel set flush in a frame. Hence the bead and butt type methods.
I think the OP wanted to have a flush panel with no movement provision around the panel edge. (What you refer to as gaps?)
Not really possible with a solid panel.

What you're trying to do here is to go counter to centuries of perceived wisdom and good practice. A solid panel will move; indeed solid timber will move (as discussed yesterday in the thread about mitred corners on a 600mm wide solid wood top) alarmingly and you need to make allowances for that movement. If you want the panel to be entirely flush, with no 'gaps' where it meets the rails and stiles then the easiest and simplest way is to use veneered panels. The caveat of course, is that you need to know how to cut your own bandsawn veneers, join them and then lay them to produce the panel.
When I'm doing a project I usually always say to myself ...."what's the easiest way to do this bit and get a decent result'' You appear not to be asking that question but substituting 'easiest' for 'most difficult' which is almost bound to see you running into difficulties. Why make life more difficult than it already is? :lol: :lol: - Rob

 

[deema]

I hadn’t noticed the wide groove in the handle! I think it’s a very clever idea, one I’ve not seen before. I agree that the rail and style joint probably needs making more robust. A full tenon, pegged (and glued) from the inside and not showing on the outside would I believe give it sufficient strength.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

By gluing the opposite side to the stile, and allowing everything else just to float. Unless all the panel pieces are rebated and the stiles & rails grooved, this couldn't possibly work, because it would involve sitting the un-glued, un-pinned panel in a rebate and just hoping that it stayed there.

I don't see it quite that way, Mike. Both ends of the panel and one edge could be held in place with a centred tongue fitting a similarly centred groove in the the stile and both rails. The tongue of the panel's edge could be glued into the stile, and the ends left to float unglued. On the other edge of the panel, the full thickness of the panel can float in the groove that matches the panels thickness worked on the inside edge of the handle/stile. As I said earlier, I think this could work, in theory at least, and quite probably in reality. But there are other issues, e.g., the strength of the limited joinery (T&G) between the rails and stiles, that I would look harder at, particularly on the handle side, where there's more likely to be issues to ponder, e.g., grabbing the handle and opening the door, and perhaps other potential causes of joint failure.

However, the whole assembly as proposed is relatively complex requiring precision, and if anything doesn't quite work out it could be a bit of a dog's breakfast with gaps or overly tight joints, etc. As I said in my earlier post, my thoughts for such a desired finished appearance would move straight towards a simpler solution, i.e., something involving a veneered panel captured within a framework ... plus an applied handle or pull. Slainte.

 

[That would work]

It's not unusual to have a panel set flush in a frame. Hence the bead and butt type methods.
I think the OP wanted to have a flush panel with no movement provision around the panel edge. (What you refer to as gaps?)
Not really possible with a solid panel.

What you're trying to do here is to go counter to centuries of perceived wisdom and good practice. A solid panel will move; indeed solid timber will move (as discussed yesterday in the thread about mitred corners on a 600mm wide solid wood top) alarmingly and you need to make allowances for that movement. If you want the panel to be entirely flush, with no 'gaps' where it meets the rails and stiles then the easiest and simplest way is to use veneered panels. The caveat of course, is that you need to know how to cut your own bandsawn veneers, join them and then lay them to produce the panel.
When I'm doing a project I usually always say to myself ...."what's the easiest way to do this bit and get a decent result'' You appear not to be asking that question but substituting 'easiest' for 'most difficult' which is almost bound to see you running into difficulties. Why make life more difficult than it already is? :lol: :lol: - Rob

I'm not sure if you are condradicting what I said or not? Bead and butt condradicts centuries of good practice? Really? It has developed over centuries!

 

[MikeG.]

By gluing the opposite side to the stile, and allowing everything else just to float. Unless all the panel pieces are rebated and the stiles & rails grooved, this couldn't possibly work, because it would involve sitting the un-glued, un-pinned panel in a rebate and just hoping that it stayed there.

I don't see it quite that way, Mike. Both ends of the panel and one edge could be held in place with a centred tongue fitting a similarly centred groove in the the stile and both rails. The tongue of the panel's edge could be glued into the stile, and the ends left to float unglued. ........

We're saying precisely the same thing in different ways.

 

[woodbloke66]

[
I'm not sure if you are condradicting what I said or not?

Nope, not really but agreeing with you - Rob

 

[Sgian Dubh]

We're saying precisely the same thing in different ways.

Now you point it out I see what you mean.

Sorry for misreading what you said. I think what threw me was where you said the "the panel pieces are rebated", as quoted below. For some reason I didn't catch on that you were probably saying to create a matching rebate at each edge on both faces of the panel, which would, of course, form a, err, uhm ... tongue, the term I used. Slainte.

Unless all the panel pieces are rebated and the stiles & rails grooved, this couldn't possibly work, because it would involve

 

[MikeG.]

Yep, that's what I meant. I knew what I meant, but communicated it in a way which meant I was the only one who had a clue what I was saying.... Apologies.

I wouldn't suggest rebating both sides of the panel. Just have the panel back finish flush with the back of the frame grooves. So actually not quite a tongue. A bare faced tongue, if you like.

 

[Helvetica]

I hadn’t noticed the wide groove in the handle! I think it’s a very clever idea, one I’ve not seen before. I agree that the rail and style joint probably needs making more robust. A full tenon, pegged (and glued) from the inside and not showing on the outside would I believe give it sufficient strength.

That’s it! Thank you. It’s clearly hard to explain though! I will do exactly that. Each door is roughly 570x400mm and I have the frame at 70mm wide - would you suggest I go wider here? My thinking is, if it’s too wide then the frame verticals are prone to movement themselves.

This has turned into an interesting discussion, a lot to parse. Going to read properly now.


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[Helvetica]

Thought I’d add some photos of the carcasses for context. I didn’t mention that it was built, and I’m making the partitions now (one glueing up in the photo). And a sketchup view of the finished design.

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[Sgian Dubh]

Yep, that's what I meant. I knew what I meant, but communicated it in a way which meant I was the only one who had a clue what I was saying.... Apologies.

I wouldn't suggest rebating both sides of the panel. Just have the panel back finish flush with the back of the frame grooves. So actually not quite a tongue. A bare faced tongue, if you like.

That would make sense from a technical point of view, Mike to allow for a panel that's the same thickness as the distance between the front face of the frame to the back edge of the groove on the inside narrow edge of the frame.

On the other hand, Helvetica produced drawings that show the panel is the same thickness as the framing, so to accommodate that I naturally thought of a centralised tongue on the edge of the panel. I made the assumption that, for whatever reason, Helvetica wanted or needed a door that's the same thickness all across its width and height.

After all is said and done though, I'd still explore the veneered panel within a frame method because I'd be working on the KISS principle, ha, ha. Slainte.

 

[MikeG.]

........ I'd still explore the veneered panel within a frame method......

Absolutely. Anything else would be a pain in the neck.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Thought I’d add some photos of the carcasses for context. I didn’t mention that it was built, and I’m making the partitions now (one glueing up in the photo). And a sketchup view of the finished design.

I rather like that. I'm not 100 percent convinced yet with the feet, as they link the carcase to the floor - it might work when I see the finished piece. I do like the cabinet carcase and the mix of doors and drawers along with the nicely mismatched protruding horizontals and verticals. Given that visually strong motif, I'd rather not add additional vertical and horizontal lines that your panelled doors will create. I'm even more convinced that a plainer (i.e., joint free) veneered door approach would look better, being cleaner lined and less distracting from the protruding handle elements, if you see what I mean. Slainte.

 

[Helvetica]

I rather like that. I'm not 100 percent convinced yet with the feet, as they link the carcase to the floor - it might work when I see the finished piece. I do like the cabinet carcase and the mix of doors and drawers along with the nicely mismatched protruding horizontals and verticals. Given that visually strong motif, I'd rather not add additional vertical and horizontal lines that your panelled doors will create. I'm even more convinced that a plainer (i.e., joint free) veneered door approach would look better, being cleaner lined and less distracting from the protruding handle elements, if you see what I mean. Slainte.

Thank you. I got the idea for the feet from a george nakashima piece - it’s definitely a Japanese solution. I liked the idea that it supported the 3 metre length at 3 points. There are also two rails that go full length and are held in place by the three feet. I thought 4 traditional legs might be weak and look weak. We’ll see!

I’m tempted to give it a shot purely for the challenge, but I will definitely give strong consideration to a veneer. To be honest I feel like it’s the more difficult solution, although maybe more reliable. I have a Startrite bandsaw but the original fence is only 50mm high - I might need some modification to cut a veneer 400x570mm. This would be a first attempt.

Anyway thanks so much (everyone) for taking the time to understand the idea and giving me advise. This is just a hobby and while I love design I lack the experience to know how to build things in a way that will last.

Slán leat a chara


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[Jake]

If you are going to do the legs, they need to line up with the dark accent dividers, as that'll that make them unequal all the better looks wise.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I’m tempted to give it a shot purely for the challenge, but I will definitely give strong consideration to a veneer. To be honest I feel like it’s the more difficult solution, although maybe more reliable. I have a Startrite bandsaw but the original fence is only 50mm high - I might need some modification to cut a veneer 400x570mm. This would be a first attempt.

I can't think of a good reason to make your own veneer when perfectly good commercial veneer (0.6 mm thick) can be purchased from veneer merchants, with the added bonus that you can buy enough to execute things like random, slip and book matches if desired. You seem to have a mix of doors and drawers where you can arrange some grain vertically and some horizontally if you prefer, or all of it diagonally ... or whatever suits you really, ha, ha. Slainte.

 

[Adam9453]

Just to add another layer of complication to the mix, you could do a rail and stile veneer layon which would look like your original joinery design but in veneer with concealed lippings. Alternatively orientate the veneer in an unusual way to give more visual interest to the doors, a sunburst pattern is visually striking but can be difficult to achieve. Worth having a chat with a veneer supplier such as reliance veneers as they can produce layons for you which you then just need to press onto your panels, alternatively you could get a veneered panels specialist to produce the doors for you however this kind of defeats the object of making this as your hobby. I like the design though and look forward to seeing it completed.