Starting out power tools

[Spectric]

If you are starting out then why bother with a planer / thicknesser, be easier to buy prepared timber and then concentrate on the basic woodworking skills of making joints and assembly. The P/T can come at a later date, there are tools which will be of more use at this early stage such as a decent router and cutters, mitre saw / bandsaw and the basic handtools. A problem with buying cheap machinery is that it can make you feel you are messing up when in reality it is the limitations of the machine. The table saw can be handy but that depends what you are doing, if mostly sheet goods then that can also go onto the backburner and then buy as the need arises.

 

[Sideways]

We all come to the hobby in different ways.
@bp122's earlier posts offer good advice about taking your time and buying one tool at a time. That way you have time to learn how to use them and to think about how they can be used to solve other problems.
@Spectric's advice to be wary of cheap tools matches my own experience.

I would add to this:
Buy tools in the order that the need arises and you can't manage without them or the workaround is just too hard. This will help you not to waste your hard earned cash.
I've bought quite a lot of bargains over the years but they're not bargains if you never or rarely use them !

Prioritise tools that are versatile:
Router can do edges (moulded, rebates, slots...), but also joints, can be used to flatten a slab, bore very clean edged and perpendicular holes, etc.
Tracksaw can straighten and rip a board, dimension sheet material, and can also cross cut and mitre upto a couple of inches thick, double if you flip the board and cut from 2 sides.
Etc

If you only want to work with man made boards, you don't need a P/T.
If you want to make solid wood furniture, I just priced a ready planed oak plank at £150+ on the first website that google threw up. Rough sawn, before machining down, that plank would have been 1 cubic foot and cost £30 at my nearest timber yard. So if that's where your interest lies, a P/T and it's chip collector could pay for themselves in just a few projects.

 

[seanash]

I think it's been an education in the last 24 hours. I really appreciate all the advice I have received and more so your patience in dealing with someone with as little knowledge and experience as I have.
There is certainly a lot to ponder and deliberate on but it's fun trying to figure this out.
Once again lads I can't thank you all enough for the time you have taken to assist me.

 

[Drifter2406]

Not trying to be judgemental here by any means, but it seems like you are in that stage of the hobby where you want to get everything now.

As someone who was in your shoes only a few years ago, I'd take a breather, sleep on this for a week. Research thoroughly as to what people have in their workshops and what they use them for.

You can get everything you want now, but none of them will be satisfactory or even fit for purpose. Instead, get the tool which does the most but of good quality. Do things with it for a while, and only then look to buy something else. This way you will spend wisely but have fewer regrets.

Apologies if this has offended you.

This is good advice, my workshop was built up over years of saving and buying the best I could afford that did the job properly, those machines are still out there being used on a daily basis.

 

[Seascaper]

Hi everyone.
I have a budget of £1200 to get myself a planer/thicknesser / jointer and a router table and router.
I'm new to the hobby but I don't want to have to upgrade within a year, I'm looking for equipment that will get me going and not hamper my progress with poor quality results.
I was looking at a titan planer thicknesser and the bosch 1181 table with a fixed router.
Any advice at all on these purchases would be great and I would really appreciate your guidance.

Hello,
Trend currently have a good offer, CRT table and router when bought together, you won’t regret buying either. Reference the planer thicknesser, I get good results with a handheld machine from Black & Decker, it saves a lot of space.
Regards

 

[Seascaper]

I think I might have underestimated the amount of dust etc and the need for extract and collection, that seems to be the common theme here. Any links or ideas on the size of kit I would need in a shop 20m3 with the above equipment installed?
I've been having a look at gumtree and the like at used equipment and researching those options.
I know I'm just starting out and it certainly does seem like there is a lot to learn and mistakes could well be made!

Hello,
All you need is a good Numatic Hoover, you can clear the floor, clean your workbench and attach it to your power tool. Often on offer from Screfix and used by the trade. Beware of old worn out redundant or stolen machines being offloaded onto ebay. Look carefully for someone who is selling departed parents shed contents. This does seem to be a common theme. You will find it easier to work in a small shed with a workbench and tools easy to reach over or under the workbench. Arrange the workbench so that you have a lower pull out bench which is good for moments when you need to work over your project. Double opening doors to your shed make it easier to work on long lengths of materials. It’s a great practical way forward.
Regards

 

[rs6mra]

What you will find is that you will buy a tool and probably never use it for some time. For instance, I thought I'd need a band saw or table saw and decided on the former. I was given one which I didn't use, got rid and bought the record power bs250, tried using it once and it wasn't up to the job, got rid, and now have a decent band saw which I will no doubt hang onto.
What you might want to do is buy what you want when you need it and aim for the medium to high end. There is a saying on this forum 'buy once, cry once'.
My router table is 2 years old and was used once last year and so far once this year. If I had a dedicated router for the table I would no doubt use it more often.
I think the bottom line is don't jump all in..........................

 

[deema]

I’m usually a little out of step in my views. I wouldn’t buy anything! If your new to the hobby, there are three basic skills you will need to master to make anything really, using a hand saw to cut square and accurate to a line, hand plane and chisel. With the se three skills most things can be made. In days of old, the master joiner would turn up with a canvas or hemp joiners bag that he carried with only a few tools in it. A couple of saws, a No 4 plane, a 1”, 1/2” and possible a 1/4” chisel, hammer, mallet, screwdrivers, fastenings (including the ‘bag bottom’ bits (they have saved numerous projects I’ve done! I’m not a master joiner, my father was though) and a few marking bits and pieces. With that they could make most things.

Join a local Mens Shed, they will have an array of kit, some of the sheds are really good, and have CNC routers etc. some, the machines, are well, of little use. But, all provide a good brew and people of like mindset with one or two who really know their stuff and are good sources of both knowledge and experience. There is nothing like get hands on different bits of kit to start and make better buying decisions.

There are two really labour saving machines for ‘real’ wood, a table saw and a planner thicknesser. I’d spend all of your budget in just one of these machines, get the very best you can. As @Sideways pointed out a secondhand Sedgwick 10” PT would be a superb investment, an asset that will not in the medium to long term loose you any money.

 

[rogxwhit]

To me the foundations of a general-purpose workshop beyond hand tools are a sawbench and a planer-thicknesser.

The more solid and accurate each of these can be, the better.

Together they cover the basics of solid wood material preparation, and the sawbench is versatile enough to extend to other tasks.

A router can be useful but isn't anything like as basic as the above. It's already been mentioned that if you needed to table-mount a router, a scrap of board with a hole in it and a batten for a fence will work fine.

It would be different if you just worked with panel stuff, or were focussed on woodturning.

What you get should be determined by what you need. In other words the work decides the equipment. Easy!

 

[NFav]

And please don't forget ear defenders as well as good quality face mask.
When I first used my router I realised why ear defenders are a good idea, pardon,

 

[recipio]

Can you get hardwoods out in Orkney ? If so a P/T is the one machine that will free you from the restriction of buying pre- planed wood. A second hand Scheppach HMS 260 should be no more than £300- 400 and they are bulletproof machines for the hobbyist. Curiously although I have a table saw I find I use a Miter saw to crosscut nearly everything so that would be my second choice. Good luck.

 

[Deadeye]

Hi everyone.
I have a budget of £1200 to get myself a planer/thicknesser / jointer and a router table and router.
I'm new to the hobby but I don't want to have to upgrade within a year, I'm looking for equipment that will get me going and not hamper my progress with poor quality results.
I was looking at a titan planer thicknesser and the bosch 1181 table with a fixed router.
Any advice at all on these purchases would be great and I would really appreciate your guidance.

Hi

I was in the same position a few years ago. As others will have said (I haven't read the entire discussion), it depends a bit on what you want to make.
The second big dependency is how much space you have and what power supply.
I went down the route of buying second hand, but good underlying quality, machines, and then doing quite a lot of renovation on them.
Most of these old machines are rock solid with cast iron beds and high quality motors. You may need to strip down and replace bearings. I'd never done this, but forums like this and Youtube supply both encouragement and info and I've learned a huge amount on the way. I've also ended up with machines of high quality, that are and will be very durable and hold their value; and managed it at a snip of the cost of buying new.
I went with:
- 1.5HP dual extractor off eBay. I made my own cyclone from polycarbonate sheet. I've used a job lot of 4" Manrose ducting to link things.
- Startrite bandsaw. Get the biggest throat you can.
- I had a Startrite Mk2 pillar drill which was great but then got a Meddings very cheap as it needed the bearings changed. If you search my threads you'll see some info on people's views of different Pillar drills
- I've got Multico separate planer and thicknesser, both restored from rusty. I can't praise the core engineering of them highly enough. Fantastic machines.
- Startrite TA table saw. Everyone wants a Wadkin, but they were out of my price range.

I've got a smallish DeWalt and larger Trend router. Probably the one thing I'd buy new.

Anyway, those are just my humble opinions!

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Seanash, I think that most here understand that it feels good to have all the equipment. And you, the beginner, want to have it all before you even know what it important. Yes, you have read what most own or use, but you have little concept of this in practice, and you have even less concept of what constitutes decent equipment.

The only power machine I had for the first 10 years was a table saw (I've been at this now 35 years). There is an awful lot you can do with a decent contractors table saw. I would get one.

Get a decent 2 hp router. You can build your own table for it. It does not need to be special. A length of timber makes an adequate fence.

Get a set of 4 chisels. Get sharpening equipment. You need to learn to sharpen.

Get a block plane. Lots of use for one.

Cordless drill, of course.

Now, before you purchase anything else, decide what you want to build. Start building, and discover what else you need.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[seanash]

Many more thanks for the excellent advice lads.
Well, up in orkney I'm restricted in what timber I can buy. I have been in contact with my local craftsman who informed me where to source from, this will involve a shipping cost which obviously increases my costs significantly.
Is there a chicken and egg situation here. I guess the first thing I want to build is a decent woodworking bench. Are any of the online plans any good? I have a work bench in my workshop as I also fettle with the odd motorcycle, but I'm going to focus more on woodwork and want a bench to work from.
I thought that I would need the p/t to get the material true to construct this, I'm guessing that if the bench is not true then the datum from then on will effect my work.
Buying used is something I'm looking into. There is a significant cost of shipping in this but I guess that's just something I have to put up with given my location.
I'm looking at cramps and hand tools at the moment to get underway with the essentials.
My workshop is about 25m3 and is 240v single phase.
Again, I can't thank you all enough for the invaluable advice. I hope that other new starts are looking in on this chat and getting as much from this as I am.

 

[rogxwhit]

Hmm, buying wood. It's such a variable material that you'll be handicapped to an extent if you can't do your own selection. The worst of merchants will try it on wholesale, but you wouldn't want to deal with them anyway. Over time you can find mills and merchants who are more to be trusted, but it seems here that you're trusting your acquaintance. Fair enough, that's how it is.

I sense that there are tons of opinions about bench design, and often people think that only one exactly like theirs will do! Weight's always good, and if you can have a 100mm thick beech top all the better. A front vice, a tail vice and some dog holes are pretty handy. The bench top may be your datum not just for work preparation but for assembly too.

Keep the metalwork separate - it's mucky and swarfy and you don't want iron filings stuck in your woodwork benchtop. Don't cut glass on it either.

Yes, it seems that islanders have to pay the price. Again, that's how it is.

 

[Dibs-h]

Buying used is something I'm looking into. There is a significant cost of shipping in this but I guess that's just something I have to put up with given my location.

Do you have any friends\family\friendly souls on the mainland that you could have all the stuff delivered to, say over a 3-6 month period (if buying used kit\machines) and then go over and collect it in one go?

 

[seanash]

Yeah, my mother is on the mainland and that is a good option to consider.
I have contacted my local shipping agent to enquire about general shipping costs of timber and equipment, but as a rough guide it has cost me £50 to have a bicycle transported 100 miles and that was on route, no deviation.

 

[Bojam]

Hi Sean

Loads of great advice here.

I agree with comments above that learning to use handtools proficiently (and be able to sharpen them) is a great place to start. Hand planes and chisels are so fundamental, even to those people who work with machines. Stock prep can be done by hand. Joints can be hand cut or hand chopped (e.g. mortises). Chisels and hand planes are great for finessing joints and creating profiles. A smoothing plane and card scrapers can give your creations a beautiful finish often without needing sandpaper.

That said, if you are going to work with solid wood then buying a quality planer thicknesser (PT) will prove to be an excellent investment as others have noted. Saves times, cuts drudgery. I suggest buying a heavy floorstanding machine with tables at least 10" (~260mm) wide and as long as you can fit (~1.5m total length would be good). I bought new because there is a negligible used market for woodworking machinery here in French Guiana. But in the UK you should be able to find a second-hand PT in good condition if you're prepared to look around and be patient. I guess living in Orkney makes it more complicated but it should still be feasible.

Personally - as some other posters have advocated - I would prioritise a heavy duty bandsaw over an expensive table saw. Go with a solid floorstanding model with at least 14" flywheels. This is the minimum really as larger machines will give you greater cutting capacity, both in throat depth and resaw height. My machine has 17" wheels (again bought new for the same reasons) and will resaw up to ~300mm. No need to go to above 20" but the footprint doesn't change all that much so it makes sense to maximise capacity if you can find a suitable model that fits the space and is in your budget. There are two reasons I suggest prioritising a bandsaw: (1) you already have a table saw that you could build into a bench; it may not be the best quality but I guess it still works?; (2) a big bandsaw is much more versatile than a table saw: it can resaw boards and make veneers, it can do all your rips accurately and safely, it cuts curves and other irregular shapes. A bandsaw paired with a PT is a great combination when working with solid timber. The crosscuts people make with a table saw can be done with other tools (handsaw, mitre saw, etc.) and there are alternatives for all the joinery cuts (e.g. by hand, with a router, mitre saw with a trenching capability for dados, rebates, etc.).

Someone said that prioritising versatile machines is the best way to go. I agree. A bandsaw meets this criteria and so does a powerful router. I agree that splashing out on a fancy router table isn't necessary. I bought a Bosch GMF1600 as my first router because it has two bases (a plunge base for most handheld use and a fixed base that can be left mounted under a table). You can control the cutter depth from above the table so it kind of obsoletes the need for an expensive router lift. Is it a perfect set up? No, but it's good enough for all the work I do. I built a big workbench and installed the router plate off well off centre towards one end. It gives me plenty of infeed and outfeed space without compromising the bench for other work. I did buy the original incra positioning jig and fence for joinery work (box joints, machined dovetails, etc.) It's cheap and very effective for box making, small cabinetry, etc. I also bought a more substantial split face fence from Axminster as part of a package that included the router plate. With hindsight I could have just as well built myself something out of plywood as there's nothing special about it. I use the router table a lot as I find it is easier and safer (to me) to control the wood through the cutter rather than take the router to the work. There are exceptions to this of course but in general the router table is my go to for precise, repetitive work. Routers are great, you can do so much with them. Make sure you invest in good tooling (cutters) though. All mine are CMT, expensive but give reliable and clean cuts with no issues.

I bought a tracksaw (Bosch GKT 55 CE) before I invested in the bandsaw a year or so later. My workbench is a large and robust plywood torsion box, resting on solid trestle tables, with an MFT top (and router plate installed as mentioned above). It's flat and weighs a lot. I bought a load of accessories including an aluminium fence, bench dogs and hold down clamps, etc. The tracksaw was my attempt to avoid buying a table saw (which I thought from all the Youtube content was an essential tool) as I figured that with this set up I could do most of what people do on a table saw without the investment in a large machine. It costs a lot to get stuff shipped out here! This set up works to a point but, TBH, since I've had the bandsaw I've rarely used the tracksaw. I don't work a lot with sheet goods and the tracksaw is limited in some key respects like setting up thin rips on narrow boards. It's a faff and the bandsaw makes ripping so much easier, especially since I can clean up the edges with the PT so cut quality isn't paramount. Don't get me wrong, the saw itself is excellent and the MFT style workbench has its place, but when you work mainly with solid wood I think there are better alternatives.

I bought a nice mitre saw (Bosch GCM 8 SJL) which has a small cut capacity due to the 216mm (8") blade. I've found it to be an excellent tool, well calibrated and easy to adjust, and perfect for most if not all the crosscutting tasks involved in making furniture and small decorative items like frames and boxes. With a good Freud blade installed, the cuts are clean, precise and easily repeatable (with stops). For carpentry work you'd want a bigger saw of course. All that said, I'm actually thinking of selling it. The problem is that I don't have the space to set it up permanently so it lives on the floor in a corner and comes out when I need it. I have a small manual table saw (the Bridge City Jointmaker Pro) which is ideal for crosscutting and doing mitres, bevels, etc. on small stock. For larger peices I can crosscut either using the tracksaw and fence set up, or by hand (and square up the ends as necessary with a handplane and shooting board). I wouldn't say that it has been an unecessary purchase, I've used it a lot and would thoroughly recommend the model for anyone looking for a small quality mitre saw. But I can live without it.

I bought a jigsaw (Bosch GST 150 CE) which I thought I need to cut curves. I did use it a few times but now I have the bandsaw it never comes out of its box. It's a good saw but not needed. I can cut curves with a coping saw, chisels and a spokeshave in the event that the bandsaw isn't an option.

I have a decent sander (Bosch GEX 125-150) which I use a lot. Is it essential? Depends on what you're doing and how you value your time. For solid wood furniture I think you can do without. Smoothing planes, card scrapers and hand sanding should be fine. For other work or if you need to finish things quickly then maybe an electric sander is required.

So I splashed out a lot of cash on a tracksaw (and accessories), a mitre saw, a jigsaw, a sander and a router when I first started. I bought pro quality gear because I knew that I would regret buying cheap and having problems down the line. I don't regret choosing expensive tools as they are a pleasure to use and I've had very little trouble. But since buying the bandsaw and PT some of these tools hardly get any use. I also bought a benchtop thicknesser because I recognised that a lot of my time was being spent on stock prep. I thought that I could adopt a "hybrid milling" approach that meant I didn't need a surface planer (jointer) and could either hand joint stock or use a planer sled and then thickness to final dimension. This approach does work but a PT is just a better solution if you are going to use machines to do stock prep. Honestly, a PT is a gamechanger in that it gives you flat and square boards from raw lumber in no time. I could have saved myself money and some frustration by just biting the bullet and importing a PT and bandsaw at the beginning of this journey. But that's the thing, you just don't know what you need to start off with.

So my take away would be that you can achieve a lot with just handtools and these are fundamental skills to learn. I use hand planes and chisels and saws all the time. If you do want machines then personally I think the best bang for your buck (if making furniture from solid timber) is a big bandsaw and a robust PT. Having a decent router than can be mounted in a table if you want and used for handheld operations is also incredibly useful as it is so versatile. I think the best investment you can make is in learning to use handtools proficiently and developing the skills. Machines can speed things up but they are not a substitute for time invested in learning the skills of the craft. Don't get sucked in to the "I need to buy all these fancy tools to make good stuff" line of thinking. Invest in some quality hand tools, learn to use them and then supplement with carefully selected machines as you see fit.

Good luck!

 

[Dibs-h]

Yeah, my mother is on the mainland and that is a good option to consider.
I have contacted my local shipping agent to enquire about general shipping costs of timber and equipment, but as a rough guide it has cost me £50 to have a bicycle transported 100 miles and that was on route, no deviation.

Assuming your mother doesn't live on the 3rd floor of a block somewhere - have all the stuff arrive there and then go over in a van and bring it home. Or drive over and get a van there (if you drive something really small), get stuff home and then back to drop off the van.

It maybe a few trips - you've got to weight up the cost\time aspect. But the bonus is you can BOGOF - i.e. pop over & see your mum and pick up the tools\machines on the way out.

Shame you're so far away - there's a used Scheppach P\T that wants it's tables cleaning and looks like it might go for a song local to me on a certain auction site.

I've always bought what I needed but kept an eye out for what I want. Usually cheaper buying (used) machinery when you don't actually need it so aren't invested in paying stupid money.

 

[Ttrees]

I wouldn't jump out and buy a PT , and a possible cu fusebox upgrade to deal with extracting from it, if i were getting hand planes, may as well use them.

Not to discourage one away from hand tools, lots of stuff to get, just try stay away from high priced stuff and seek out older stuff for cheap when you see a bargain.

One could easily blow it all on silly things like posh aluminium squares.
Just to give a sense of value here's some buy it now's on the bay,

Just trying to give my preference, for what I'd consider..

These I believe have 1.5kw motors, so that would need be clarified if the single phase one can run of 13a household plug.

The more expensive one would need to be checked to see if it were a dual voltage motor which has 240v stated on the motor nameplate, and then its a hundred quid vfd to buy after that, which will easily run from the household 13a plug, as its the starting surge of an induction motor
(as any machine you get, should be)
which is the most troublesome , and will likely be limited to 2hp/1.5kw if going single phase,
compared to three phase with 240v dual voltage motor with adjustable soft start via VFD, which is easy on the supply, and worth consideration if a really good bargain shows up locally.

Possibly a bit much to pay compared to the cheaper one, just comparing , and
noting that the fence wouldn't be difficult to make,
however one would question why it were missing in the first place ?
I'd want to see it cutting before consideration. (edit: it does have a fence)

Just sayin what some others have suggested to get one really good thing which suits best,
instead of multiple half working machines with niggles, and methods of which you might consider doing in other ways.

And especially so if you've ever looked at much aluminium tools,
try and acquire a good core machine before you splash out on new stuff unless its good quality and good value.

If you've not looked at the multiple youtube recommendations here before, then it might be good way of finding what work suits you, hand and machine.
Just to even get a first hand impression of things,
and not form any particular way of thinking which will empty ones wallet
as that is the name of the game for most.
Depends on what your making but for me there's not many folks who's workshop is a similar setup to mine, as in small workshop, dealing with it whilst trying to be productive, even just in a hobby setting.
Easier if it were the size of Rob Cosman's workshop, but I wouldn't be able to afford the overheads.
I'm quite happy using hand planes instead of needing a PT ,
and the only universal motors in the workshop are on a hand drill, and maybe an angle grinder sometime.
No screaming lunchboxes for me, only quiet reliable induction motors,
oh wait I do have some routers in a press, very messy business, I don't use them too often, those can be gotten cheaply, if you keep an eye out.

Good luck.