'Standard Angle' Planes?

[Calpol]

Hullo all, just a wee thought on hand planes as I'm after a smoother. Now that low angle planes are the norm and the blades can be honed to a high angle anyway, what's the point of the 'standard' versions? There must be an upside if they still make them, no? Apologies for the ignorance but I've not done much proper handmade pieces and it's something I'd like to get more in to...

P.S. I have a low angle jack already :wink:

Thanks a'body

 

[Philly]

C
Regular bench planes (like the Bailey pattern planes) and pretty useful beasties and, depending on the timbers you like to use, can perform the majority of your work. They certainly aren't useless :wink:
But with the re-discovery of higher cutting angles most new planes are now available either with high angle frog options or in the bevel up configuration, which allows you to alter the effective pitch by honing the blade at a higher or lower angle. Planes with standard pitch (45 degrees) were traditionally designed for use with softwoods and tame hardwoods.
Personally, I would use a regular bench plane until I hit a problem (such as huge tear-out) then swap to a more specialised plane to sort it out.
Hope this makes sense,
Philly

 

[Calpol]

Thanks for that Philly! I wasn't trying to imply they were useless, what I meant was what are the pros to buying a standard smoother over a low angle job? Or which would you recommend to buy?

 

[Aled Dafis]

Or which would you recommend to buy?

I'm sure Philly would recomend a "Phillyplane" :wink: , available in pretty much any bed angle you need.

Cheers

Aled

 

[Philly]

Or which would you recommend to buy?

I'm sure Philly would recomend a "Phillyplane" :wink: , available in pretty much any bed angle you need.

Cheers

Aled

Surely not :wink:

C - When it comes to smoothers, I would recommend a high angle one - You can still plane softwoods with one!
Cheers
Philly

 

[Paul Chapman]

There was an article about this by Chris Schwarz on his Blog, which you might find interesting http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/bl ... lanes.aspx

I wouldn't say bevel-up planes are now the norm. All my planes (except a couple of low angle block planes) are bevel down and I've never seen a need to change.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Calpol]

Thanks gents! Excellent article there Paul, that's what I was after, a break down of pros and cons for each... Makes it a bit clearer for buying one! There's a few plane sizes now with low angle versions and I was really after finding out why, now I'm happy!

Probably go for the original type then, thanks again folks

 

[matthewwh]

Hi,

Good question.

Much of it I think comes down to 'feel' and personal preferences. Personally I like being able to extend a finger and tweak the depth of cut or lateral adjustment slightly whilst planing, rather than having to stop and fiddle about under the blade. Also, many people don't realise the extent to which effective pitches of standard planes can be adjusted. Simply by skewing the plane to the work you can lower the effective pitch by up to 15 degrees (with a 45 degree skew). You can also use small (1mm or so) back bevels to increase the pitch. I have a curved blade, a straight blade and a back bevelled blade that I swap out according to the needs of the job at hand.

At the same time I can fully understand why some folks prefer bevel ups, they make good sense and are very effective.

 

[woodbloke]

I've switched completely to BU configuration but I did find them very strange to start with. The LV BU smoother is IMO far better than my old BD one which was a Record Calvert-Stevens with a LN blade. The LV LA jack, try and BU smoother are now the ones that I automatically reach for. Each blade is honed to 38deg giving an EP of 50deg but the mouths are all set slightly differently - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

Much of it I think comes down to 'feel' and personal preferences.

I would echo this. Top end planes can be a significant investment so I would always suggest you try before you buy. You can make both types of plane do more-or-less whatever you like, depending how you set them up, so try as many as you can and settle on the ones that feel best to you in actual use.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Mikey R]

...Top end planes can be a significant investment so I would always suggest you try before you buy. You can make both types of plane do more-or-less whatever you like, depending how you set them up, so try as many as you can and settle on the ones that feel best to you in actual use...

Hi Paul,

Trying out planes before buying always seems tricky - unless you have some woodworking friends with a good selection to try!

Most tool stores dont have a bench with scrap harwood to try out with, unless you can get to a specialist hand tool shop.

Even at the Harrogate show last November, none of the stands had LN display planes with their irons honed, at least late in the day, so it was difficult to see exactly how good they could be. As it was, these top of the range planes performed much worse than my trusty Stanley #4.

This was the first show I've been to, so is this normal for woodworking shows? I was expecting fully functional planes to try out! Maybe the planes with the honed irons got sold before I got there?

How does everyone else try out their planes?

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Mike,

Yes, some of the planes on show at the various woodworking shows are a bit disappointing because they have not been honed and set up properly.

I would suggest two things. First, if there are any get-togethers of UKWS members in your area, go along. Between them, any gathering of half-a-dozen or so UKWS members will produce examples of most top-end planes.

Second, try to get along to shows like the hand tool event at West Dean where, last year at least, Mike Hudson was there from Clifton, Denib Pulchalski from Lie Nielsen, and Philly of Philly Planes all with the full range of their planes fully honed and ready to go. Most were at Westonbirt as well, together with Martin Brown of BriMarc with all the Veritas stuff and Konrad Sauer of Sauer & Steiner with all his planes.

Hope this helps.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Hey, Paul. You pushing Cliffies again (OK, so I'm not in a position to say any different )
C - Find any show with LN's Deneb or Clico's Mike and the irons will be being maintained throughout the day.
If CHT are sponsoring the event or exhibiting, all three top flight iron planes (LN, Clifton and Veritas) will be available with great input from the team.
Be warned - Mike Hudson is an old fashioned British gent of archetypal reserve but justifiable enthusiasm for his product. You will empty your wallet when you try his racing green wonders (and I'm confidant there won't be any buyer's remorse afterwards.)
For woodies, Phil is a fine fellow, more than happy to corrupt you with more traditional British fare (got a couple of pairs of HRs in process at the mo, woohoo.)
I would highly recommend West Dean in June if you can make it - last year's event was superb, with all of the above (and more) in attendance.
(The beer's rather good around Chichester too.)

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

My recommendation is BU planes for the extreme included (cutting)angles - for example, 37 degrees on a shooting board and 60-70 degrees on a smoother. Then BD planes for the middle range.

The advantage of BU planes is their cutting angle range as well as a low centre of gravity, which increases the ease with which they may be pushed.

The disadvantage of BU planes is that sharpening and stropping blades is more complicated. They require microbevels at specific angles, and this is a doddle to do with a honing guide, but only for those that use them all the time. For those who prefer freehanding their blades, then a BD planes is going to be preferred - hollow grind the primary bevel, swipoe it over a stone, and no need for a specific bevel angle (other than to repeat the one you have). BD planes rely on the bed angle to determine their cutting angle (for those who did not already know).

So I continue to use both BU and BD planes pretty much equally.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Paul Chapman]

Find any show with LN's Deneb or Clico's Mike and the irons will be being maintained throughout the day.

There are other advantages in attending shows where people like Mike Hudson and Denib are present. I learnt some very useful tips from Mike about how to hone blades and get them really sharp and from Denib I saw the benefits in using toothed blades for stock preparation. They are always very happy to share their knowledge - even if you are not buying.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[newt]

Of course there is nothing new about low angle BU planes, just seem to be in fashion at present, and they are cheaper to produce.

 

[lwilliams]

...Now that low angle planes are the norm and the blades can be honed to a high angle anyway, what's the point of the 'standard' versions? There must be an upside if they still make them, no?

The up side is that, if properly ground and sharpened, there's no issue with an inadequate clearance angle. Wood resists cutting and deflects ahead of the cutting edge and springs back after part of it is cut away. In hard woods or when taking anything but the lightest of cuts in soft woods this spring back causes a lot of wear to the bottom of the cutting edge if there isn't enough clearance angle. Even metals do this and, for metals like brass or aluminum a 12º clearance angle isn't enough. That's the clearance angle of the most popular BU planes out there today.

Yeah, BU planes are great for parlor trick planing (actually scraping) of difficult grained wood at wood shows and that snake oil sells a lot of tools. BU planes are very limiting in the amount of wood they can remove. If all you want is a replacement for your sander, maybe they're the way to go. If you want to actually work with your planes, there are better choices.

Go look at Karl Holtey's new plane. He's abandoned his BU 98 in favor of a single iron, half pitch, bevel down plane. His 98, BTW, was bedded at 22º which had enough clearance.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Larry

I think that you exaggerate somewhat. I have spelled out a few positive and negatives of BU planes, but the overwhelming fact is that a great many woodworkers swear by their BU planes. They provide a performance in the higher cutting angles that is not easily matched by BD planes. Angle-for-angle, a BU plane is easier to push, and this is all the more apparent at high cutting angles.

You say 12 degrees is insufficient clearance, but Leonard Lee writes that 7 degrees is enough, and in practice I have not heard anyone complaining about their planes lacking clearance.

As for taking heavy shavings, this is possible. We have gone over this before. Nevertheless I tend to agree with you simply because I consider that the strength of the BU plane, as I posted earlier, lies at the low- and high ends of the cutting angles. It is unlikely that one would be seeking deep shavings with such set ups.

I use BD planes as frequently as BU planes. I think that it is a case of Horses for Courses. They each have strengths and weaknesses, but more importantly one may see that they compliment each other in their respective strengths.

BU planes are a boon for those that require high cutting angles. I am prepared to put up with a honing guide to use BU planes. For freehand sharpeners (such as myself), it is much easier to use a BD plane, and if you only require standard cutting angles (if you work mainly straught grained or medium hard wood), then a BD plane is likely to be preferred. But the fact is that BU plane deliver, and you just cannot argue with results.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Oh Larry, one more thing.

Karl Holtey has not "abandoned" his #98. I don't know where you get your stuff. Have a look on his website. The new BD #982 does not look like a replacement for the BU #98. It looks like a new addition to his range, one with a step up in BD design. I imagine that he is also catering for different tastes and preferences. Karl is likely to come by here and comment.

Regards from Perth

Derek