stair building advice

[kingjohn1966]

hi just found this forum and was after some help. Ive been a site carpenter 10years mainly 2nd fixing new builds refurbs and loft conversions, and am now looking to learn how to build staircases. have been searching for either a guide or a book i can buy mainly something to show how to calculate sizes and angles where and when to use winders/landings. ive got the oppertunity to build staircases on the loft conversion firm i currently 2nd fix for and 90% of the time a 3/4 step quarter winder softwood/mdf staircase.

can anybody send me in the right direction here or isit something that has to be done on an apprenticeship?

many thanks in advance

john

 

[blackrodd]

If you don't have someone to teach you, or help when some of the many problems occur, I would say leave them alone.
You would need a big workshop and plenty of bench space, and all the machinery,too.
Customers expect a high standard, when paying £2000, £3000 for a flight.
If you're busting a gut, get a job bench joining in a shop that makes, and fits them.
HTH Regards Rodders

 

[James-1986]

The decision between winders and landings is a compromise between regulations, how much space you have and what the client wants. Remember with stairs a miscalculation or error is often multiplied and you can easily end up with a large piece of scrap. Once you have a good idea of how stairs are made you can start to work out how they are measured up, which is hard to do if you have nobody to teach you.

"Paul N Hasluck - practical staircase joinery" is quite a good guide to general stair stuff, has some interesting bits on more advanced work.

If you want to make good quality stairs you will struggle without machinery, as you'll be stuck with using a router and pre-machined timber.

 

[Jacob]

It's a mind bender and the most difficult woodwork you are likely to encounter as an architectural joiner. A proper traditional job is the most difficult which is one reason a lot of people opt out and go for "modern" designs - open treads etc. These aren't as easy as you'd think either.
It's easy to get confused even with basics e.g. there is the same number of nosings but one less going ("tread" or "run") than the number of risers, which sounds improbable until you realise that the top landing is the missing going.
You need a good grasp of basic geometry, layout and drawing board skills. I'd start by trying to design one on the drawing board at a big scale say 1:10 so you can see how it goes. Not sure if sketchup etc will help much as at some point you have to layout full size, for the posts and stringers, if not the whole construction
But there is masses of info out there - just google "stair design" etc. American specifications/terminology are slightly different from UK but the general info is much the same.
The old books are good - MacKay, Hasluck etc. but building regs make some trad details difficult - particularly with winders.
NB You won't likely use 4 winders as it wouldn't fit building regs so it'll be 3 (90º) or 6 (180º).
Enjoy yourself! :shock:

 

[PAC1]

Buy yourself one of the good American books and download the relevant part of the Building Regulations. Remember there is very little in the American books about building stairs with stringers they prefer open strings but there is enough to learn. You need to know the building regs as there are several aspects to be aware of which limit the nature of the stairs. You will make mistakes along the way but it is an interesting challenge. You also needs big workshop

 

[Sawyer]

Most of the standard carpentry & joinery textbooks will give you the basic principles and the general woodworking skills, you already have. All the same, stairs are quite tricky and involve large amounts of material and time, so the stakes are high. The good news is that the process of building stairs is utterly logical.

I'd strongly advise you to get the measurements, do all the sums governed by building regs. &c. and then do a scale drawing, 1:10 or bigger, which will resolve many of the questions and become an invaluable visual reference during the build itself.

 

[rdesign]

just helping u on building regs
min width 800mm
min going 220mm
max rise 220mm
max slope 42 degrees
min landing depth is 800mm at top of stairs or half landing
min 400 mm space away from doorway.
min headroom 2m


when doing the maths, measure height u need to climb i.e. from floor to floor then divide by 220mm that gives u the number of risers u will need

the going is more complicated but again its measure the space u have take away any landing size u need then divide by 220 to find how many steps ( round down for going round up for risers)

its not really that difficult but hard to explain on a forum.

marking gauges will be your friend to stop multiplication of errors.

regards Richard

 

[zb1]

min width 800mm

min landing depth is 800mm at top of stairs or half landing

Never heard these two before, not in my copy of part K either. Landings should be no narrower than the width of the stairs though. Any staircase less than about 650mm feels too narrow though.

Space saver stairs have different reg too. Just download Part K and make sure all the boxes are ticked.

To confuse matters further I believe the regs only cover new staircases, so if you are replacing an original staircase that was pre regs you can replace like for like. The stairs in my Victorian semi-detached are going of 180 rise of 215 which gives a pitch of 50 degrees. If I needed to replace the staircase there would be no room to fit anything other shallower due to the position in the house.

 

[Fat ferret]

Not too difficult. I did my first with a brace and Tenon saw (now I would use a router) but I was replacing like for like as the old staircase had woodworm. Two flights with a half landing. It took me about a week, marking out was the hard bit. I made all my components from pine and then put the thing together. I just followed a picture from my textbook and 2 years on it's fine. Pictures below.

https://www.facebook.com/2614563073...1456307377492/277734495749673/?type=1&theater

Let us know how you get on.

 

[kingjohn1966]

Thanks for all the input, the building regs part particularly helpful so appreciate that. I can't seem to find any American guides that rout out the stringers in the way we build stairs here not sure if I'm searching the right things. Think I'll need to get someone to show it to me as somebody else said, I'm sure il learn it fast as I can build a straight flight easy enough I'm able to fit any stair case pitch awkward hand cut roofs etc just baffles me how to design and get the sizes on the staircases :S

Thanks again for help so far would stil appreciate a link to a stair building bible if such thing exists

John

 

[midnightlunchbox]

I teach stair construction, straight flight and winders, to apprentice joiners and it's not something I would recommend unless you are absolutely sure you know what you're doing. There are several calculations to do to work out the step rise and going, the headroom, aggregate and pitch and everything is governed by the building regs. Check the regs closely as in Scotland the maximum step rise is 220 yet the minimum step going is 225, the minimum landing size is 900mm, so there are differences. You then need to either buy or borrow a jig to router your stringers or make a template (which is what we do with the apprentices), there are potentially complicated housings to be removed from the newels and handrails to M&T. I'm not trying to scare you, ive been a joiner all my days and can turn my hand to almost anything but I've made and fitted all types of stairs from geometric to spine beam and it's not something to start on a whim. That said, if you do your homework, take your time, and are a decent hand you should make a good attempt. Most mistakes can be rectified and I take my hat off to anyone who is committed to furthering their knowledge and skills.

Good luck John, I really hope you make this work.

 

[mailee]

I just have to comment on this as I have just built and installed a staircase in a listed building....my first! this set was just a softwood set leading down to a cellar but still had to be right. I read as much as I could up on building them on the Ineternet and asked my friend who owns a joinery company and has made a few in the past. I also read up on the regs to make sure it was right. Got to say for my first attempt at making them I found them pretty easy to build. i made my own jig for the router and used a framing square to set the angles. i also made a rod from the stair well for the length/height. (The original staircase had rotted away so couldn't use this) luckily there were two treads and risers left to get an idea of what to copy. when it came to fit them they went in perfectly with a slight planing to allow for a slightly bowed wall and everything lined up just as planned. I was relieved I have to say. I haven't built any winders but would like to try one now I have more experience with the process. :wink:

 

[HOJ]

Welcome to the forum.

In the first instance, if you are specifying softwood/mdf stairs, buy them in, just fitted a straight flight and two three tread off
shoots, in a loft conversion, cost less than £300.00 including delivery and VAT...

However, I do make stairs, generally in Oak, and whilst it can be daunting, measuring and planning is key, every one is different, I do cheat a little bit,
some stair companies have online design options, which I use to prove the calcs.

When making winders I draw the plan and elevations, on sheets of hardboard, full size, takes all the guess work out of laying out.

You certainly need the space to dry build them:

And a planer/thicknesser for producing the stringers and treads etc, you could probably just use a router for all the nosings, and rebates for the risers, and housings in the stingers for both, I have a bought in router jig that I use to make a copy template for the routing of the stringer housings, and use various bits, such as a dovetail type cutter for closed treads and risers, whislt a straight bit is used for the open tread stairs.

I have this book in my workshop which is good starting place, very informative, I am not sure if there is an up to date version, this one is from 1991.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Carpentry-Joinery-Volume-Brian-Porter/dp/0340545518

 

[Sawyer]

When making winders I draw the plan and elevations, on sheets of hardboard, full size, takes all the guess work out of laying out.

+1. And then mark the winders up directly from the full size plan. As far as I can see, this seems to the only way to do winders - but I'd be interested to know of any other methods ....

 

[Jacob]

When making winders I draw the plan and elevations, on sheets of hardboard, full size, takes all the guess work out of laying out.

+1. And then mark the winders up directly from the full size plan. As far as I can see, this seems to the only way to do winders ........

Yep.

The other essential is the story stick - long lath with the story height marked out and all the risings marked in with dividers. Winders make no difference the risings are the same, but you can mark them in to identify them, and other details too such as newel posts, hand rail M&Ts etc. - taken from the nosing line to make things more confusing.

 

[Sawyer]

And, give every riser and every tread/winder a number, then mark those numbers everywhere - components, joints, drawing, rod &c. It's amazing how much clarity such a simple action can provide and will help avoid many a mistake.

 

[Fat ferret]

HOJ you don't appear to be using the traditional wedges under the treads, or are you adding them later? The housings don't look wedge shaped.

 

[Stimpi]

Welcome to the forum.
Building staircases is not easy I did a years City & Guilds course at Leeds Building college as well as working in a shop that made them. In the shop we basically assembled them, the setting out room set them up, the wood machinist manufactured them and we put them together and fitted them on site. If you were lucky you got a chance to assist the surveyor on site with measurement and learnt the essentials in the use of a rod. Most flights were of a basic nature so for more sophisticated flights you need to work for a specialist stair company and therefore the most informative at first was the C & G course. The best advice I can give is if you are dead serious is to draw as many stairs as you can at half inch to the foot scale. As you would on a course and then build half size models, again as you would attending a Building Collage. If you come across problems then ask the forum and maybe show a photograph.
Go through the five stages separately.
1. Site Survey
2. Set Out
3, Machine
4. Assemble
5. Erect on Site
Each of the stages has its own set of problems.
Good luck

 

[rdesign]

if you put up a sketch of where its going, the height it needs to travel to the next floor and the space available showing doors landings ect.... i could help u out with the math.

regards richard

 

[HOJ]

HOJ you don't appear to be using the traditional wedges under the treads, or are you adding them later? The housings don't look wedge shaped.

They are all wedged and blocked, made it in two sections and fitted the winders on site, tight on space, pictures were not that clear:

Also worthy of note, if you just rout round the jig you get a rounded edge on the riser to tread housing, I use a blocking piece in the template to keep the corner square, looks a lot neater.

And, give every riser and every tread/winder a number, then mark those numbers everywhere - components, joints, drawing, rod &c. It's amazing how much clarity such a simple action can provide and will help avoid many a mistake.

Agreed.

The other essential is the story stick

Absolutely, use them for mostly everything I make.