Stigmorgan
Established Member
Hi guys, I have 2 heavily spalted pieces of silver birch that I think are too far gone to turn, is anyone able to stabilise them and how much would it cost me?
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Wanted Stabilizing wood
- Thread starter Stigmorgan
- Start date
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Droogs
Not the Sharpest Moderator in the box
Check the latest pricing for resin at easy composites. The biggest cost is dependent on how big they are as that will dictate the size of vaccuum pot you need presuming you already have a vacuum pump for veneering.
It can take up to a week of sitting in the chamber before all the moisture is out of the wood and you inject the resin and of course you then have to let it sit for a day to fully absorb it and then bang it in an oven to cure.
It can take up to a week of sitting in the chamber before all the moisture is out of the wood and you inject the resin and of course you then have to let it sit for a day to fully absorb it and then bang it in an oven to cure.
Stigmorgan
Established Member
Yes and yes, it's gone very soft and big chunks get torn out rather than cut, stabilising with resin hardens it so that it doesn't fall apart while turning and finishing.
Stigmorgan
Established Member
I'm aware of the process but don't have the equipment or space to put it if I was to buy it all, for now I just want to know what someone would charge for me to send them the 2 pieces I have and do it for me.
My solution with same is to dry it in a microwave oven (if not dry), and then saturate the soft parts with laminating epoxy. That epoxy is like water at room temperature, and will soak in well. When dried, up to a couple of days, it's ready to be turned or worked with, and retains the interesting patterns.
Stigmorgan
Established Member
No need for pressure/vacuum pots? If so then this could be an option for me.
I think my approach would be similar to jonn, but I’d probably use a wood hardener rather than a resin. What I’ve done previously is turn down the piece as close as possible to the final size, then apply the hardener then when dry turn to final shape. That’s worked ok for me.
I also have a vacuum chamber and use that for small pieces. The process is very time consuming and really fiddly to get exactly right! AFAIK Easy Composites does not sell a heat set resin. There’s only 2 that I’m aware of and they are expensive! I use Cactus Juice. If your blanks were, for example, 6 inch by 3 inch, you would find that very expensive and would take quite a long time to stabilise.
I also have a vacuum chamber and use that for small pieces. The process is very time consuming and really fiddly to get exactly right! AFAIK Easy Composites does not sell a heat set resin. There’s only 2 that I’m aware of and they are expensive! I use Cactus Juice. If your blanks were, for example, 6 inch by 3 inch, you would find that very expensive and would take quite a long time to stabilise.
clogs
just can't decide
I asked before but got no answer......
I would think a vac pot would be better than a pressure pot, as a lot seem to use the press/p on utube.........
I just dont know....
I would think a vac pot would be better than a pressure pot, as a lot seem to use the press/p on utube.........
I just dont know....
Stigmorgan
Established Member
For what I need it would be a vacuum pot to pull the air out of the wood then when you release the vacuum the resin is pulled into the voids created by the vacuum
Tris
What am I doing here?
Try the thin CA glue from Screwfix, I've used it on very punky spalted hornbeam with good results (albeit small pieces). If you flood the surfaces and let it sink in well, then dry it well before turning it should work. It doesn't stick to plastic bags so a couple of 'bags for life' may be useful to cover the working area.
Good ventilation needed of course
Good ventilation needed of course
two different processes.
When you mix the parts of a chemical set epoxy, you have to mix it VERY thoroughly. Inevitably this means that you get bubbles in the mix. If it’s a shallow pour you can get rid of the surface bubbles with a flame or heat gun. If you are casting decorative work you don’t want bubbles within your casting. A pressure pot reduces these air bubbles to a tiny dot that the eye cannot see.
When you want to stabilise wood, the aim is to replace all of the water and air in the piece with heat (not chemical) set epoxy. You first have to reduce the moisture content to as close to zero as possible. This is absolutely vital, but time consuming. Next you fill your vacuum chamber (or container within the vessel) with heat set resin. This has a very thin consistency. Put your piece into the resin. Then draw a vacuum. There is much discussion over what level of vacuum to draw! The chamber is quite specialised, unfortunately any old one won’t do. Now wait. And wait. And wait. Basically until you are sure that all of the air is out. Then release the vacuum. Then wait for at least as long as you held vacuum, some people wait 2x. This whole process takes days. Now you need to activate the resin in an oven. You need precise heat control. Too cool and it won’t work. Too hot and all the resin will run out before it cures. The bigger the piece the longer this takes as you have to achieve the right temperature at the centre and hold it for a minimum period of time.
I hope that explains it, there’s a lot more detail freely available if you Google it.
Alpha-Dave
Established Member
I have considered getting into stablising wood, but the economics of it are not great; for example if you were using methacrylate monomer like the US brand Cactus Juice, you will have a wastage that goes off before it can be used; batches last for months, but the wood has to be totally submerged. Therefore rectangular shapes in rectangular baths work ok, but still not great.
The wood may need over 50% of the volume replaced by the polymer. Therefore with the wastage, you might as well assume equivalence of polymer to wood volume. Therefore the cost would be of a similar sized block of plastic. Therefore not viable for woodturning anything more than pen blanks, finials and coasters.
The places in the US that sell stabilised wood, it seems that scales for gun handles and knife handles are common, (£10-20 a pair for ~9 cubic inches) with some luthier parts such as fretboards and the occasional body being available, but at significant cost.
Then there is the capital cost of the pressure &vacuum chamber(s), you cannot get many batches done per month (as gog64 indicates), so the equipment depreciation is significant.
So for a ‘quote’ for some relatively small woodturning blanks (8x8x2”; 128 cubic inches) lets say £150-300.
... however that is at an ‘artisanal’ level (1 person in a garage); if it were at an industrial scale of 1-tonne batches of chemical, then maybe it could drop to ~£50, but the cost of the raw materials would still be a floor somewhere around there.
The wood may need over 50% of the volume replaced by the polymer. Therefore with the wastage, you might as well assume equivalence of polymer to wood volume. Therefore the cost would be of a similar sized block of plastic. Therefore not viable for woodturning anything more than pen blanks, finials and coasters.
The places in the US that sell stabilised wood, it seems that scales for gun handles and knife handles are common, (£10-20 a pair for ~9 cubic inches) with some luthier parts such as fretboards and the occasional body being available, but at significant cost.
Then there is the capital cost of the pressure &vacuum chamber(s), you cannot get many batches done per month (as gog64 indicates), so the equipment depreciation is significant.
So for a ‘quote’ for some relatively small woodturning blanks (8x8x2”; 128 cubic inches) lets say £150-300.
... however that is at an ‘artisanal’ level (1 person in a garage); if it were at an industrial scale of 1-tonne batches of chemical, then maybe it could drop to ~£50, but the cost of the raw materials would still be a floor somewhere around there.
Droogs
Not the Sharpest Moderator in the box
The biggest problem for me and what I would like to do is that the chambers are round cooking pots. I would need a chamber in the shape & size of a trumpet case for the parts I want to work with. admittedly If I could get one I could batch work the parts and be able to fit around 50 at a time in it. With the ability to add dye to the mix it would make some very interesting highlight components in what I make.
At a very basic level, when I have found tearout on spalted beech a problem, I have turned the best finish I can and then I cover the whole surface with a couple of coats of cellulose sanding sealer (homemade shellac and meths). Let it soak in and dry and then turn to a finish. It works most of the time unless the beech is too rotten and punky, in which case you are back to the current thread. Worth a try!
there’s a company in Eastern Europe that I’ve bought from before which makes pressure vessels of all shapes and sizes. A custom sized one for your application should be possible I would have thought. Though you would probably need it vertical not horizontal, otherwise the glass would be very expensive and heavy. I can look them up, but I’m sure there are UK companies that would make you a custom vessel of the right size & specification.
Wow I never for an instant thought it could be that expensive, but saying that I had no idea what the process entailed.
I wrongly thought all it needed was to stick it in a microwave and then soaking it in resin or acrylic, and put into a pressure pot overnight
This is a really good thread.
I wrongly thought all it needed was to stick it in a microwave and then soaking it in resin or acrylic, and put into a pressure pot overnight
This is a really good thread.
MuddyFunster
Established Member
I have looked at pressure and vacuum chambers, Ben's worx made an interesting video about using pipe, I guess 100mm stuff looking at the video, but always be careful about overloading and having a safety method in case the thing pops.
The second link is Nick Wright, similar plan but on a bigger scale, and a dual use pressure/vacuum setup.
Not sure if it's trombone case sized but anyway, if you want to look at what they did, the links are here.
Hi Stig i hope you all are well . I use this Cuprinol it works well with great results
