Spindle moulder or router table?

[Avery]

Router tables are fine but spindle moulders are better. If i just want to chamfer an edge id rather set up the router table then a spindle moulder. The answer is both really. Im in a shared workshop , until recently we had a spindle moulder (Felder) and also we all had our own router tables.
Set up time and tooling costs...If you do the same large operations over and over the answer is spindle moulder, if you find yourself doing detailed work ( we are all cabinet makers) and constantly changing operations and cutters like i do i tend to stick to the router. Quick set up time let alone the cost of all the initial tooling.
Get a spindle with a tilting shaft.
All the crapola for a decent router table can run to a grand , mine did. In which case a spindle starts to look good.
I wouldnt settle for less than a felder. can be pricey.
Tough call. Im 15 years with both and i still cant answer that question.
for windows and doors , spindle
fine furnitue router table

 

[guineafowl21]

I'm not disagreeing with most of this, but I'm not sure I could get a 200kg+ spindle moulder into my workshop without hiring a couple of scaffolders - it's up 2 1/2 flights of steps. The router table came in bits I could carry on my own.

I didn’t consider that! You’d be alright with my first spindle, a cheapie Charnwood W030 - no more than washing machine in weight. A little rough round the edges but did me proud, and a gentle introduction to the machine.

 

[Jar944]

Router tables are fine but spindle moulders are better. If i just want to chamfer an edge id rather set up the router table then a spindle moulder. The answer is both really. Im in a shared workshop , until recently we had a spindle moulder (Felder) and also we all had our own router tables.
Set up time and tooling costs...If you do the same large operations over and over the answer is spindle moulder, if you find yourself doing detailed work ( we are all cabinet makers) and constantly changing operations and cutters like i do i tend to stick to the router. Quick set up time let alone the cost of all the initial tooling.
Get a spindle with a tilting shaft.
All the crapola for a decent router table can run to a grand , mine did. In which case a spindle starts to look good.
I wouldnt settle for less than a felder. can be pricey.
Tough call. Im 15 years with both and i still cant answer that question.
for windows and doors , spindle
fine furnitue router table

I wouldn't limit myself to Felder, My smallest spindle is a model 511 (same as all the other east asia 511s) that is a decent little machine (3.7KW, 330kg) it's not as nice as the Italian, German or even Polish machines. However it is very capable within its capacity and was relatively inexpensive.

 

[heimlaga]

In my oppinion (small scale part-timer) a good full size spindle moulder is a machine worth having for anyone who for one reason or another must count his hours or put some sort of value on his time.

Spindle moulder tooling tends to be expensive and the justification of that cost defines the point at which it becomes viable to get one. A mayority of hobbyists (not all) would not run a spindle moulder enough to justify the cost of tooling. A very productive hobbyist or almost anyone who earns money working wood certainly does run it enough to justify the cost.
That is my oppinion at least.
I use my spindle moulder at least 20 times as much as I use my router table. There are some jobs that the router table cannot do properly or safely and for them I need the router table. I owned and used a spidle moulder for almost 10 years before I found it worth the cost to get a router at all. Then it took a year or two before I built the router table.

I have no statistics to back it up but at a glance it seems like those who talk down spindle moulders eiter have never learned to use one or have owned a too small and lightweight one.
In my oppinion a spindle moulder has to be large and solid and powerful enough to really be worth it's cost. I see no point in buying one that weighs under 300 kilos and has a motor of less than 2,2kW. If money is tight an old pre-war Jonsered or Robinson is a way better investment than a new lightweight spindle moulder. If money wasn't an issue I would take a new-ish professional grade machine with tilting spindle any day but in the reality where we live our lives money is always an issue in one way or another. Therefore one has to have on's list of priorities. A heavy solid frame and a large cast iron table and a powerful motor are more important in my oppinion than all the modern bells and whistles. More important than a tilting spindle. More important than guards because guards can be made for and retrofitted to almost any old spindle moulder. Two speeds are enough. Three is better. Almost any old spindle moulder can be converted fron one speed to two speed by installin a (rather expensive) two speed motor or installing a larger single speed motor and a variable frequenct converter.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I am coming to the conclusion that maybe the router table has gained popularity not because it is the better tool but because the plunge router has been around a long time and at some point someone put one under a workbench with a fence and it all progressed from here, but was that the right path of progression?

Having thought about this and thinking about differences between these two machines then once a router table becomes a motor in a lift then it is more spindle moulder than router apart from the different tooling. I have never looked inside a spindle moulder but would assume the spindle is belt driven from the motor and that it works along similar principles to an upside down pillar drill that allows height adjustment, and if you want a tilt facility then the whole motor / spindle assemby tilts. If someone was looking at buying a router table setup then given all the info about a spindle moulder and both demonstrated would they still buy the router table? Perhaps someone like @Peter Sefton who has taught woodworking might have some thoughts about such a choice and whether spindle moulders were used in his workshop.

I have had spindle moulders and router tables in my workshop over the years both with and without students. They both have their benefits but can be used for different things. I loved my spindle moulder and power-feed, fantastic for commercial furniture making and joinery but I sold it and now only have my router tables. The router table is much safer and easier to set up than a spindle, for the variety of smaller detail work I now do or teach the router table is perfect.

When I had full time students they would be back and forth using the router table within a few weeks of joining the workshop, they only started using the spindle moulder in the third term and under constant supervision. I have kept all my spindle tooling, a couple of grands worth just incase I get a spindle again, if I do get one it will be a decent size and quality, not underpowered or lightweight. I have used some big spindles over the years, the scariest was a small Kity so light weight-when breaking through the fence it felt very unsafe.

Just been preparing for next weeks course, the students will be grooving for a 2mm inlay on timbers less than 400mm long, perfect for a router table, it would make no sense to get home woodworkers pushing these through the spindle moulder.

 

[deema]

@Peter Sefton that’s exactly the sort of job I would do with say a 4mm groover on a spindle with a powerfeed. Keeps your fingers completely away from anything spinning and sharp. I’m guessing the router cutter was raise from underneath to the required depth and highly likely for most people they would push the stuff over it against the fence, no doubt passing their hand over the cutter. Kick back and it all gets ratter messy
I really don’t understand why people consider a router table safer than a spindle. I have not seen a logical rationale for the perspective.

 

[TRITON]

Theres a nice Kity 626 here. £250 start with a single bid on it.
All the bits inc a sliding table set up. Looks good.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224818783650?hash=item34583e65a2:g:78gAAOSwGM9h-XeJ

 

[Peter Sefton]

@Peter Sefton that’s exactly the sort of job I would do with say a 4mm groover on a spindle with a powerfeed. Keeps your fingers completely away from anything spinning and sharp. I’m guessing the router cutter was raise from underneath to the required depth and highly likely for most people they would push the stuff over it against the fence, no doubt passing their hand over the cutter. Kick back and it all gets ratter messy
I really don’t understand why people consider a router table safer than a spindle. I have not seen a logical rationale for the perspective.

@deema I would be interested to know how the cut you describe would cause kick back on a router table?

 

[Ollie78]

I think its a lot to do with the scale of the work being produced. Trying to put a 10mm square bit of wood through the spindle is a bit sketchy, but you can't really do a 55mm thick door stile through a router table in one pass either.

Ollie

 

[deema]

I think its a lot to do with the scale of the work being produced. Trying to put a 10mm square bit of wood through the spindle is a bit sketchy, but you can't really do a 55mm thick door stile through a router table in one pass either.

Ollie

That’s interesting, both machines will produce the same cut. You would use a sacrificial fence on the spindle so only expose the cutting bit of the cutter. You would use some form of jig to hold the work. Now, on a router, you probably can’t use a sacrificial fence as the cutter is too small so more of the cutter is exposed, and in all likelihood the operator would just push it through with their hands. The SM is far safer and pushes you into best practice.

 

[Ollie78]

That’s interesting, both machines will produce the same cut. You would use a sacrificial fence on the spindle so only expose the cutting bit of the cutter. You would use some form of jig to hold the work. Now, on a router, you probably can’t use a sacrificial fence as the cutter is too small so more of the cutter is exposed, and in all likelihood the operator would just push it through with their hands. The SM is far safer and pushes you into best practice.

They could likely produce the same cut.
My example was more to illustrate appropriate/ intended use.
In my workshop it would be quicker to set up the router table for a small ovolo mould on a thin bit of stock rather than put a sub fence on the spindle and dial it in, if you tried to run that little piece just as you would on the router table it will likely just smash it to bits.
I have no router bits that will do a 55mm moulding for a window or door and certainly wouldn't be able to do a matched scribed tennon on the router table without some serious hassle. Not saying you can't just maybe its not the best.
Also my spindle is large and cast iron but the router table is smaller and made of wood, so far less sturdy for large work.

Another thing is custom ground knives are affordable but custom router bits not so much.

Ollie

 

[deema]

I know I’m biased, I personally think routers are one of the most dangerous machines most people use. They seem to lull people into a false sense of security compared to other bits of kit. The most dangerous I think is a hand held power plane. Most of us curl our fingers under a hand plane to act as a fence…….you only do it once on a power plane. Anyway I digress.

I can’t say I have done a 10mm square bit of stuff on the spindle, but 12mm for window beads I have lots of times, and can definitively say that it doesn’t break them. Apart from breaking through a sacrificial board, I can’t think what extra time is required. I can swap a block and change the knives in less time than it takes to wind up and down a router platform lift, undo the collet, change the bit, retighten the collet and wind down the platform. The fence still needs adjusting on both, depth of cut is really easy to adjust on a spindle and in fact can be done on the fly. A router, you really need to switch it off, wait for it to stop, and then get the hex key (or some other tool) to wind it up or down.

I can see the usefulness for site work, and can understand only having a router table in those circumstances rather than a spindle. Also, if you need to store away say a desk top router table arrangement because you haven’t the floor space for a spindle. Other than that, observation and comments would suggest that router tables promote less safe working practices principle because people seem to use them without shaw guards, and run their hands close to / follow through stuff over the blade. I think we have all experienced a router bit breaking who have used a router for any period of time. I’ve never heard of a modern spindle using modern blocks loosing its cutters or the block coming off the spindle at the operator.

 

[Spectric]

All very interesting, but no machine with any type of cuttng ability is going to be 100% safe otherwise it would not be usable, but where the material can be fed through without getting near any cutter is as safe as you will get so from that perspective the spindle and power feed must be safer.

Another thing is custom ground knives are affordable but custom router bits not so much.

I have seen Wealdon do blank inserts for their cutter heads so you can make your own profiles, a very cheap option wheras with the router table you do work with what router cutters are available but I would say this is not a major issue for most home hobby non trade woodworkers providing you can be flexable.

I made up some lengths of Sappelle moulding to top off some wall paneling, two piece construction and with one length at nearly three metres long. I have a Kreg router table and Triton router using Infinity cutters, but with Jessem clear cut guides to keep the work against the fence. I will add that this drawing does not show that I rebated the 19-130 into the top piece so as to make the join more pleasing.

I will say it was time consuming because it took five passes with a very shallow last pass but cannot fault the results, to me this shows the router tables capability but if I was needing to make a large batch of these then I dare say the moulder would come into it's own and is maybe why I have overlooked the spindle moulder.

 

[Peter Sefton]

@Peter Sefton that’s exactly the sort of job I would do with say a 4mm groover on a spindle with a powerfeed. Keeps your fingers completely away from anything spinning and sharp. I’m guessing the router cutter was raise from underneath to the required depth and highly likely for most people they would push the stuff over it against the fence, no doubt passing their hand over the cutter. Kick back and it all gets ratter messy
I really don’t understand why people consider a router table safer than a spindle. I have not seen a logical rationale for the perspective.

@deema Just to clear up any confusion if timber was passed over the top of a router cutter there would not be any kickback, this is because one side of the cutter would be forward cutting and the other back cutting-therefore counteracting each others force, even if you fed the timber through the "wrong" direction it would not cause kickback.

Anybody who uses saws, planers, spindles or routers tables without guards is asking for trouble, so most machines used without guards will be definition be more dangerous than one that is guarded. We do use false or sacrificial fences on the router table when required but the gap between the fences on a router table is so so much smaller than those on a spindle moulder making exposure to the cutters/block much less on router tables than spindle moulders.

The groove I am making is 2mm wide and less than 2mm deep, I do have a 2mm slotting saw for the spindle but they are not very common. I am using a 2mm groover on the router table, far more efficient than running over the top of a 2mm fluted cutter, I would only use this for stopped inlay or plunge routing-something a spindle moulder can not do.

You can see from the images the router table is fully guarded and very safe, no need for the extra expense of a powerfeed-which I do love on a spindle.

I think it is very unwise and reckless to advise home woodworkers that spindle moulding is safe, it can be but only with experience and a full understanding of the risks involved. It's such a versatile bit of kit but with that comes the risks as every set up can be different, getting it wrong has led to many fingers being lost.

Don't get me wrong a spindle moulder is a wonderful machine, but it is renowned for being the most dangerous woodworking machine and with good reason!

I wrote this article 11 years ago and have done my bit over the years teaching spindle safety to home and professional woodworkers, I am not saying I know it all but I am saying IMO the router table is a far safer bit of kit. I would advise anyone who buys a spindle moulder to get training before having a go.

Routing is less dangerous but training is helpful to work safely and to get the best of your kit, just finished two routing courses, places available in May and June.

https://www.peterseftonfurnituresch...urse_beginners_and_advanced_make_a_tool_tray/
Cheers

Peter

 

[TRITON]

"Squeaky bum time"
I'm trained up to a level, but curved work is always so bloody risky I just dont want to undertake it.
We used a full ring fence set up. Never totally open like this

 

[clogs]

I'm lucky to have a router table with a 3HP Hitachi slung underneath......
plus 2 Sp/moulders, a lightweight Kitty and a cast iron monster.....
safety is all important but there are some that still cant use a bench saw properly so there no chance u can teach em to use the above machines....
most can't even use a hand saw.....
but for those that are not sure and reading this thread.....
u can't make one piece skirting boards or other big stuff with either a lightweight S/M or a router table.....
If u dont have room for a biggish S/M u def wont have room to put the timber thru it.....
they need a fair bit of uncluttered acreage.....
plus without in feed and out feed tables that kinda work is a 2 man job...(even using a power feed), plus the 2 men need to work as a team.....
having made miles of skirting u find out whats really needed....
that and a huge bin for the waste....hahaha....
for the home one man shop a spindle is a luxury but a nice one.....
this is a nice post......

 

[clogs]

thanks Triton, just watched that vid.....
a lot of prep time for such a little mileage but def not for me.....lol.....

 

[deema]

@Peter Sefton all machines carry some risk, used properly which is what I have throughout advocated the risk is reduced as far as possible. However, what I don’t do is propose something that is not based upon evidence.

The original query, which is what I am responding to is for making windows, which is best. A router is not the most appropriate piece of machinery. A spindle moulder is the machine which is best suited for this type of operation.

Spindle moulders had deservedly a fearsome reputation for removing hands when the old style tooling was used. To reduce the risk legislation was brought in to limit cutter projection (LCPT) something that is also applied to routers for the same reason. Under the legislation the cutter projection for either machine at its maximum, for compliance is the same. A lot of accidents were caused by operators not waiting for cutters to come to a stop before putting their hands in, and again legislation (PUWER regs 1998) required moving blade machines to stop within 10 seconds. Interesting they specifically mention hand fed routers, and a lot of router tables setups don’t comply when swinging large tools, where as all modern Spindle moulders do (Their specification states the maximum weight for the cutter block they can handle). I am not aware of any handheld router that is braked, as they don’t need to stop in 10 seconds. A handheld router used in a router table in a workshop employing anyone they are not I don’t believe legal to use as they don’t comply with the PUWER 98 requirements without a brake fitted.
Best practice for a spindle is to use a powerfeed, which removes totally your hands from any where near the blade. It also almost eliminated when set properly the risk of kick back. The small amount of statistical evidence from both the UK’s HSE and across the pond that breaks down the equipment involved with an accident is that table saws create the most injuries and loss of fingers, closely followed by planers and then spindle moulders.

 

[Peter Sefton]

@deema @countrybumpkin I joined the post late, looking back at the original question. The windows with rebates and chamfers could be done on a table saw with tunnel guards for safety, no need for a spindle or router table.

For joinery work or larger production furniture making a spindle moulder is a must, for home woodworkers a router table is the way to go IMO.

Cheers

Peter

 

[Peter Sefton]

@Peter Sefton all machines carry some risk, used properly which is what I have throughout advocated the risk is reduced as far as possible. However, what I don’t do is propose something that is not based upon evidence.

The original query, which is what I am responding to is for making windows, which is best. A router is not the most appropriate piece of machinery. A spindle moulder is the machine which is best suited for this type of operation.

Spindle moulders had deservedly a fearsome reputation for removing hands when the old style tooling was used. To reduce the risk legislation was brought in to limit cutter projection (LCPT) something that is also applied to routers for the same reason. Under the legislation the cutter projection for either machine at its maximum, for compliance is the same. A lot of accidents were caused by operators not waiting for cutters to come to a stop before putting their hands in, and again legislation (PUWER regs 1998) required moving blade machines to stop within 10 seconds. Interesting they specifically mention hand fed routers, and a lot of router tables setups don’t comply when swinging large tools, where as all modern Spindle moulders do (Their specification states the maximum weight for the cutter block they can handle). I am not aware of any handheld router that is braked, as they don’t need to stop in 10 seconds. A handheld router used in a router table in a workshop employing anyone they are not I don’t believe legal to use as they don’t comply with the PUWER 98 requirements without a brake fitted.
Best practice for a spindle is to use a powerfeed, which removes totally your hands from any where near the blade. It also almost eliminated when set properly the risk of kick back. The small amount of statistical evidence from both the UK’s HSE and across the pond that breaks down the equipment involved with an accident is that table saws create the most injuries and loss of fingers, closely followed by planers and then spindle moulders.
View attachment 128802
View attachment 128801

I worked if further education in the late 90's I was sent out for the day to the HSE for update training on all the new legislation and then set the task of risk assessing and writing safe systems of work for the college (I would much rather be on the tools) As part of the training the incident rates were discussed from memory although most accidents occurred on the table (the most used bit of kit) the rate of accidents per hour of use was highest on the spindle-thus the reputation.

The accident rate and extent of injuries on the spindle is much lower now than 20 years ago but I still see old Whitehill blocks being used in industry and promoted on here or sold on eBay.

Cheers

Peter