Spindle Moulder Advice

[Jacob]

The practice of setting one cutter slightly behind the other, or having just a "balance" in place of a cutter is, as somebody at Whitehill apparently told Roger, "a very old fashioned idea".
Non the worse for that IMHO and a useful thing to know, particularly if you are involved in precise reproduction of period details, as I was. Still am to some extent.

 

[RogerS]

....The discrepancy is miniscule I'm sure, and no doubt with some unevenness in wear the lead varies from cutter to cutter as a profile is run, but I think this is probably the case. However, in the overall scheme of things I suspect, through my experience of using blocks of this type anyway, such variations in matched cutter profiles in spindle blocks add up to nothing noteworthy or significant. Slainte.

I couldn't agree with you more, Richard.

My main concern, however, is the almost throwaway comments that Jacob makes which could be misconstrued by those of lesser experience. Sometimes the advice in those throwaway comments borders on the unsafe or dangerous. Any road, not a problem anymore as I'll just stick him on Ignore (again) and let other folks make up their own mind as to the accuracy or sensibility of his comments.

 

[Jacob]

..... not a problem anymore as I'll just stick him on Ignore (again) and let other folks make up their own mind as to the accuracy or sensibility of his comments.

Yes please Roger please ignore everything I write - you will only find it confusing and get over excited. It probably isn't good for you. :roll:

 

[Sgian Dubh]

My main concern, however, is the almost throwaway comments that Jacob makes which could be misconstrued by those of lesser experience. Sometimes the advice in those throwaway comments borders on the unsafe or dangerous. Any road, not a problem anymore as I'll just stick him on Ignore (again) and let other folks make up their own mind as to the accuracy or sensibility of his comments.

Roger, Jacob's manner of expressing himself may come across as throwaway and flippant at times, but his comments regarding what were once common or garden spindle moulder techniques aren't necessarily incorrect. There's many a moulding I've run with just one cutter that I'd ground to the appropriate profile mounted in compression blocks and Whitehill blocks that were 'balanced' with a heavier, non-matching profile cutter shoved deeper into the block.

Such practices are no longer current or common, and nor do they meet the safety standards of today. I certainly wouldn't encourage contemporary amateur users new to spindle moulders, with the typical attendant non-existent training in their use, to even attempt doing what we used to do on a regular basis forty or more years ago. Spindle moulders used to have a well earned reputation for amputation and more serious injuries, even in the hands of wood machinists with decades of experience.

However, I've still got a couple of old fashioned Whitehill blocks should I ever get the urge to knock out a limited length of non-standard moulding where twenty minutes grinding of a cutter to a developed profile will do the job, ha, ha. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

I certainly wouldn't wish encourage amateurs either - but there seems to be plenty of scary discouragement out there - further health warnings hardly necessary!
Also I do add a lot of safety suggestions to my posts.
But people will have a go at outmoded methods without any prompting from me - it's all in the books and on the net already.

 

[blackrodd]

So to put this to bed once and for all. I asked the experts - Whitehill - this question based on your reply (without the personal abuse).
This is the reply. My bold.

We only make exact prs & exactly to shape.
The only problem can be information from the customer is not that good.
That is a very old fashioned idea.

No doubt you will try and wriggle out as per usual.

Actually Roger, I think Jacob has a point. I suspect there is a tendency for one cutter to provide the lead cutting action during a moulding (machining) procedure, even when using matched moulding cutters. The leading edge could change from cutter to cutter. Let's say that the profile length is 45 mm long, and one cutter may be the lead for, say 10 mm, then the other cutter is the lead for the next 20 mm, and finally, the first cutter leads for the final 15 mm of the profile length, all due to tiny variations in the profile made. The discrepancy is miniscule I'm sure, and no doubt with some unevenness in wear the lead varies from cutter to cutter as a profile is run, but I think this is probably the case. However, in the overall scheme of things I suspect, through my experience of using blocks of this type anyway, such variations in matched cutter profiles in spindle blocks add up to nothing noteworthy or significant. Slainte.

My teacher (now 78) always said if you push, or feed fast enough they will both cut, even a slight secondary projecting cutter.
Of course you will always know after a "run" as one cutter will show signs of more use and even be blunter than the secondary
From my distant memories of night school and college, surely the answer is in the cutter marks per inch (in old money).
As the Relevant information ie, feed speed, shaft speed is available, then it can be seen whether one or two cutters are working.
As a matter of interest, perhaps the member whom is in contact with Whitehill, would be good enough to ask them how many CPI's they recommend for a good finish as I can't remember the actual number acceptable.

Whitehill were always aware of the common practice of, say a prime cutter and a balancer, as their rep came and watched me doing the very same, our 5 or 6 whitehill blocks were each sent away yearly to be serviced, and came back like brand new each time! Regards Rodders

 

[doctor Bob]

My only comment is that although HSE rules apply to companies with employees, I think for one man bands if you have an accident whilst using non compliant tooling I doubt an insurance company would pay out.
Now if you have no insurance then it doesn't matter.
I can't understand how a cutter can come out of a modern safety block, they are locked in with pins, wedges and centrifugal force, the only way I can see it coming out is if the wedge dropped out before it was fitted. Even if it all comes loose during the cutting it cant come out.

Jacob.......... you wouldn't be making up a little story to make it look like modern tooling is not safe would you, surely not.

 

[Peter Sefton]

The one cutter one balancer was common practice, but never good practice.

The quality of cut will always be poor compared with both cutters in the same circle. As pointed out the real quality of finish is dependant on a combination of factors at play including the cutter RPM which needs to be within the limits as printed on the block and the feed speed of the timber. These matters are dictated by the quality of work you are doing or how much time you wish to spend sanding out the cutters marks.

I do understand the H&S cost implications to small businesses (we are one) its a bit like the cost implications of getting a taxi if you want to go to the pub and down six pints. None of us want to pay the extra but we need to make a sensible decision based on facts (and possibly the law) not on what we used to do 30 years ago.

If I have to do a short moulding run I have to make the decision of using out dated practices or make it the real old fashioned way with a moulding plane.

You can get the cutters and limiters made for you, our local saw doctors make cutters to match a drawing or section of moulding. They hand file a template to match your requirements and then use the profile grinder to copy it on the cutters and limiters allowing for the elongated cutter length. These are a reasonable price but are reliant of the guy filing the template by hand. if you wish to have a very accurate moulding made up I would email the drawing to Whitehill in a format their CNC machine can read and this takes out the human error. I have found their cutters very good and accurate. When setting cutters and limiters they should all match and be exact pairs but there is still room for human error. You will find a small amount of play in the dowel pin holes, you need to set the cutters all tight to either the bottom or top edge of the holes to minimise any mismatch in profiles.

The spindle moulder does have a bad reputation, is was not unusual for old wood machinists to have lost a finger or two. These were guys who were experience time served craftsmen not casual woodworkers who can now use the kit that would not have been at their disposal years ago.

The Whitehill block was the safety block of it's day but the cutter projections this left us with was still very dangerous. If hands came into contact with the cutters fingers would be torn off at the knuckle thus the loss of fingers not just cut fingers. The kick back and snatch these style of blocks cause is the dangerous part particularly when doing ring fence work.

The chip limited blocks are still rotating very quickly but act more as bacon slicers which means they don't snatch timber or flesh to any where near the extent of older blocks. This has reduced the amount of serious injures and amount of cutters coming out of the blocks.

I do not say these things to grab attention but this is part of the accident history and systems developed to make our machines and industry much safer. A well set up spindle is a pleasure to use and far safer than most of the other machines within the workshop, as access to the cutters is better guarded than on the planer or saw bench. When done properly.

Everyone can make up their own minds how they wish to work in a home workshop as long as they understand the implications, but those in industry are legally bound to comply either as employers or those who are self employed.

It's easy to say I only do it when working alone, but alone is the worst time to have a serious woodworking accident!

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

The one cutter one balancer was common practice, but never good practice.

It was a time saver and perfectly good practice. No inherent hazard, except wear to the bearings if over done. Usually indicated by the rumbling.

The quality of cut will always be poor compared with both cutters in the same circle.

Not so - hardly noticeable if at all. I suppose if you pushed the feed rate you would see a difference

.......
The Whitehill block was the safety block of it's day but the cutter projections this left us with was still very dangerous. If hands came into contact with the cutters fingers would be torn off at the knuckle thus the loss of fingers not just cut fingers. The kick back and snatch these style of blocks cause is the dangerous part particularly when doing ring fence work.

Anybody getting near enough to lose a finger is doing it badly wrong. Ditto if you have limiters. Limiters have only one function which is to limit the damage to the hands of a beginner who shouldn't be on the job in the first place. There will still be some nasty damage. It's the management's fault if that happens.
Kick back is something I've never experienced - I don't know how or why it happens. Except when cutting bevels on a TS - the wedge shaped off cut can get picked up and slung out but this is easily avoided with a false fence

nd industry much safer..... A well set up spindle is a pleasure to use and far safer than most of the other machines within the workshop, as access to the cutters is better guarded than on the planer or saw bench.

Agree

It's easy to say I only do it when working alone, but alone is the worst time to have a serious woodworking accident!

Cheers Peter

Well yes OK but what I meant was that most of the danger is with inexperienced operatives. The chap giving you a hand is at much greater risk than yourself.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

From my distant memories of night school and college, surely the answer is in the cutter marks per inch (in old money).
... how many CPI's they recommend for a good finish as I can't remember the actual number acceptable.

My memory has it that the recommended knife marks per inch (KMPI) to aim for were/ are somewhere between 12 - 18, and that the best finish is produced with a light cut at higher KMPI. The idea for fine work, frequently (but not always) is to hog out the bulk of the waste, and reset the fence/ support arrangement, or moulder head height for a final cut at something like a 1/64" or 1/32" deep. This strategy reduces work required to remove the knife scallops prior to polishing, e.g., in high quality furniture work.

There are differences too in the optimal tool set-up for different wood species, e.g., the angle the knife is set at as measured against a radial line drawn through the centre of the block - generally more acute at about 20º for hardwoods and less acute, about 30º for softwoods. Of course, my memory could be playing tricks - it was quite a long time ago. Slainte.

 

[blackrodd]

From my distant memories of night school and college, surely the answer is in the cutter marks per inch (in old money).
... how many CPI's they recommend for a good finish as I can't remember the actual number acceptable.

My memory has it that the recommended knife marks per inch (KMPI) to aim for were/ are somewhere between 12 - 18, and that the best finish is produced with a light cut at higher KMPI. The idea for fine work, frequently (but not always) is to hog out the bulk of the waste, and reset the fence/ support arrangement, or moulder head height for a final cut at something like a 1/64" or 1/32" deep. This strategy reduces work required to remove the knife scallops prior to polishing, e.g., in high quality furniture work.

There are differences too in the optimal tool set-up for different wood species, e.g., the angle the knife is set at as measured against a radial line drawn through the centre of the block - generally more acute at about 20º for hardwoods and less acute, about 30º for softwoods. Of course, my memory could be playing tricks - it was quite a long time ago. Slainte.

You're certainly right on the above, in fact you as you are probably aware this cutting angle was the reason the french head was so useful, and stayed popular for so long as it had more of a scraping action, and far better results with timbers with short or any controversial grain. While an apprentice, I did use the french head and burnished the cutters (not hss of course) under my workmate's watchful eye.
Some of the older machinists actually fed the timber in the same direction as the cut, just a quick whip down through, I was told, apparently good for the various mahoganies, etc. but I'm not too sure how good it was for the fingers.
Regards Rodders

 

[Giff]

Can someone clarify the point below that Robin BHM made in this post:

"whereas joinery PAR, the only option for the general user to buy will be the lower grades of unsorted or possibly fifths. "

I thought unsorted softwood was the best you can get and fifths next to that…I am now confused

Thanks Geoff

 

[Stuart]

Reading this thread through again I can remember many instances where I have in the distant past done what Jacob says, a cutter and a balancing cutter and a slow feed into the revolving block. In my experience it was common practice up to about 1990 when Whitehill and tool doctors stopped servicing the old type of block. Persons who have come into the trade since this time might have never seen it done, even a person working for Whitehill might not have come across it.
I am not sure but I think the non captive blocks without limiting cutters are now illegal without power fed, someone in the trade now and familiar with H&S might clarify this?
Years ago Lietz tooling had a training film showing spindle accidents, in one part they touched a revolving block with a pigs tail, (a dead pig), it is formed out of bones similar to human fingers and the result was terrible, it made me more careful with a spindle.

 

[RobinBHM]

Can someone clarify the point below that Robin BHM made in this post:

"whereas joinery PAR, the only option for the general user to buy will be the lower grades of unsorted or possibly fifths. "

I thought unsorted softwood was the best you can get and fifths next to that…I am now confused

Thanks Geoff

Hi Geoff,
Apologies for a poor explanation! I meant to say 'or possibly only fifths'.

Unsorted of course refers to grades 1 to 4 and fifths is the next grade down. Some timber merchants machine fifths for their PAR timber, some use unsorted.

 

[James-1986]

Get a price and make your own mind up. Personally I think they are expensive and sometimes not as precise copies as you'd expect.

They only guaranteed way to get two cutters to do EXACTLY the same amount of work is to grind them in the block on a profile grinder. Even if the pair are a perfect match, you get quite a lot of movement on the pins in the modern blocks so they are often set wrong. The only way to check all that accurately is with a setting stand. So its either a big inconvenience for someone else to do it or a big investment to buy the equipment.

The other disadvantage of the modern safety blocks is that if you don't have a tilting spindle you cannot turn the cutter to alter a moulding.

I use whitehill and Wadkin safety blocks, the wadkin blocks are safer as the clamping block is a wedge shape so grips the cutter if anything comes loose. Safety issues aside you cannot beat the efficiency and cost of using one cutter with a balancer in a whitehill block if you're doing lots of custom mouldings. I've got about 15 blocks for my spindle and tenoner. and a huge tub of cutters for about £200.

For someone who is not trained or willing to use whitehills, wealden do blocks with no limiters, but you do have the locating pins and wedge shaped clamps. I got one with my spindle and have used it with one cutter and balancer but lack of a tilting shaft means it doesn't get much use.

http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... 4_314.html

 

[Jacob]

I agree with all that. Pleased to see we are not alone! The fact is - if you want to produce perfect replicas "modern" procedures make this difficult to impossible.

.....
http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... 4_314.html

That's reassuring - the blurb says "without limiters - not suitable for hand feeding"
Well I use push sticks - which is also far away enough from hand feeding to make limiters unnecessary. I'm safer than I thought and not breaking a rule!

Personally I don't think blocks with limiters are safe for hand feeding either - limiters are pointless and may even lead to a false sense of security.

Very interesting thread especially Rodders account of the bad old days - not all bad practice by any means.

 

[Jacob]

...
I can't understand how a cutter can come out of a modern safety block, they are locked in with pins, wedges and centrifugal force, the only way I can see it coming out is if the wedge dropped out before it was fitted. Even if it all comes loose during the cutting it cant come out.

Jacob.......... you wouldn't be making up a little story to make it look like modern tooling is not safe would you, surely not.

If a cutter is very loose it can flap about and shatter even though it's held with pins. In fact it will probably break along the line of the pin holes and half of it be thrown out.

 

[RogerS]

Limiters are a legal requirement any business when hand-feeding in spindle moulders, for example. This requirement applies whether you employ anyone or it is just yourself as self-emploed

Anyone who says limiters are pointless is an *****.

 

[Jacob]

Limiters are a legal requirement any business when hand-feeding in spindle moulders, for example. This requirement applies whether you employ anyone or it is just yourself as self-emploed

Anyone who says limiters are pointless is an *****.

Pay more attention Roger, you might just get it. It's not that difficult to understand.
Wealden is saying that no limiters are OK when machine fed.
I am saying that using push sticks is much the same as machine fed (no possibility of hitting the cutters) and hence limiters are not needed here.
I'm also saying that hand feeding without push sticks (even with limiters) is not safe i.e. when you hand is only the width of the workpiece away from the cutters. The most dangerous bit being as the end of the workpiece passes the cutters. Doubly dangerous if not all the cutter is in use on the workpiece.
Even with limiters you could get a very nasty cut. With push sticks (and the "hands up" reflex see above) this is virtually impossible. Hence limiters might give a false sense of security possibly leading to risk taking (hand feeding).

I'm saying don't hand feed at all, ever. An exception might be with a large timber covering the cutter - say rebating a door lining - where you left hand could be on the workpiece but you should still use a push stick in your right hand to push the end of the workpiece past the cutters. If you do this limiters are irrelevant.

 

[doctor Bob]

...
I can't understand how a cutter can come out of a modern safety block, they are locked in with pins, wedges and centrifugal force, the only way I can see it coming out is if the wedge dropped out before it was fitted. Even if it all comes loose during the cutting it cant come out.

Jacob.......... you wouldn't be making up a little story to make it look like modern tooling is not safe would you, surely not.

If a cutter is very loose it can flap about and shatter even though it's held with pins. In fact it will probably break along the line of the pin holes and half of it be thrown out.

No it cant flap around as the centrifugal force holds the wedge up against them. So I'm saying that it could only have happened if the wedge had dropped out before it was put on the spindle.