sorby/Tormek jigs vs wolverine/storme etc?

[Albion]

Thanks! That should be really helpful, the systems look very similar.

 

[paul-c]

hi all
you know sometimes when you read a post and just have to check back to see other peoples opinions - well this is the one for me.
nev thanks for starting this.
chas , terry and everyone else thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions on this subject that, i for one and, im sure many others struggle with.
cheers
paul-c

 

[dennisk]

I made up some homemade things and was never really pleased with them. I had built the rests that are in Keith rowleys book and they are on my 6" grinder and they are great. When I bought an 8" grinder then I took the splash and bought the Oneway system and it is great. Well built and easy to set up and strong. It is amazing how many times Keith Rowley gets mentioned in here, isn't it!

 

[KimG]

Robbo, thanks for your in depth analysis, I am considering the Storme, but reading your post makes me wonder if I would not in fact be better off with the Sorby, seeing as you found the Sorby so useful, why did you also buy the Storme? Did it fill a shortfall in the Sorby jig?

 

[gregmcateer]

Nev,
Axminster sell their equivalent of the wolverine, which seems to be pretty much the same and I am sure it is cheaper

(Though I am happy to stand corrected by those with more knowledge.

For what it's worth, Richard Findley showed me how to do it all on the simple platform, like Silverbirch above. (Not saying I can do it reliably yet, but I am getting the hang of it).

HTH
Greg

 

[TEP]

Just my take on the sharpening topic. As already said NO jig will sharpen your tools without a good bit of operator experience. ONE you need to know what profile you are aiming for. TWO, the biggest problem with newbie's to a jig is grinding on a complete sweep, you need to remove certain areas of steel to achieve the profile you need. THREE, most of these jigs give you far to many variables to play with, such that again with out any experience newbie becomes totaly disappointed. I don't blame him, as with just half an hour tuition he would have the knowledge.

IMO ALL long grind jigs should be fixed, this is one variable you can really do without. A profile jig such as the Hamlet, is in my opinion one of the best on the market. You set the projection of the tool in the jig and set the angle pushing the V rest in or out. Keeping the projection measurement on ALL gouges you then only have the one variable.

A previous poster mention having to move his grinder as the V rest was too long. I constructed my own jig, and the V rest is only about 10" long. I only sharpen my long grind spindle and bowl gouges in it. All my other tools are sharpened and shaped on the flat table. I know they show you grinding a conventional bowl grind in the V arm at full stretch, but you try to put a 80deg grind on a bowl gouge like that and watch what happens, just keep your hands clear.

I based my jig on the Wolverine with a few alterations, another good example for any one who fancies having a go at making one is here.

 

[nev]

... but you try to put a 80deg grind on a bowl gouge like that and watch what happens, just keep your hands clear.
...

Seconded! and DAMHIKT :shock: #-o

Greg..
Thanks for the heads up, but this is an oldish post and i plumped for the wolverine with no regrets bar one , see above!
whether it is just the passing of time and experience or the jigs themselves but my tools are a lot sharper and consistent with the kit than before it.

Also turning is a lot easier when your tools are actually sharp, as opposed to when you thought they were sharp. A lot of the advice given on the forum or indeed in various books makes a lot more sense and actually works straight away when you have sharp tools

 

[woodyturner]

Sorry if I'm opening a can of worms here but I have seen no mention of learning to sharpen freehand I'm not knocking or trying to step on anyone's toes regarding using jigs or sharpening systems but as good as they may be they are not the only way to sharpen when I learned to sharpen there weren't all the aids there are today and we had to learn how to sharpen freehand before we were allowed to use the tools it just seems a lot of expense for a newbie to lay out before trying to learn freehand which then leaves a few hundred pounds to spend other tools but in saying all this I do understand that some people find it impossible to sharpen freehand and need these systems but all I'm saying is they are not the only way to sharpen

 

[CHJ]

woodyturner, are you saying that all that glitters is unecessary for 80%+ of turners ?

Brave Man.

 

[nev]

Sorry if I'm opening a can of worms here but I have seen no mention of learning to sharpen freehand I'm not knocking or trying to step on anyone's toes regarding using jigs or sharpening systems but as good as they may be they are not the only way to sharpen when I learned to sharpen there weren't all the aids there are today and we had to learn how to sharpen freehand before we were allowed to use the tools it just seems a lot of expense for a newbie to lay out before trying to learn freehand which then leaves a few hundred pounds to spend other tools but in saying all this I do understand that some people find it impossible to sharpen freehand and need these systems but all I'm saying is they are not the only way to sharpen

I agree!
the best grind I have seen so far was the one that Richard did for me (freehand) , but if like me you're inclined to have a go yerself without someone teaching/ showing you, its a lot easier with a jig and instructions :wink:

 

[woodyturner]

woodyturner, are you saying that all that glitters is unecessary for 80%+ of turners ?

Brave Man.

No I'm not I'm just saying it isn't the only way I once watched a demo of the Sorby system and he didn't get tools as sharp as some of us old un do freehand and it took a lot longer to set up but as I have already said I can see there is a need for some people but not for everyone

 

[Richard Findley]

Hi all

There's not much I could add regarding jigs because I don't use them! With the mention of free hand I thought I would add my thoughts.

If you've read this month's Woodturning Magazine you'll know how I sharpen my tools, basically freehand from a tilting table. I have tried totally free hand but found that my angles became a bit shorter each time until they were not much good. With the tilting table I can regulate the angle and ensure it is what I'm after.

A recent experience suggested to me a possible issue with jig based sharpening. I have used a Henry Taylor 3/8 Superflute bowl gouge since I started turning 10 years or so ago but it is now becoming a little short do I recently bought a new one, this time I went for an Ashley Iles bowl gouge. Still an excellent tool but with a slightly different shaped flute, and when I say slightly, I mean a tiny tiny bit different. I went about sharpening it to my preferred shape but found it didn't cut quite the same as my old gouge. I realised that the slight difference in flute meant there was more metal in one area of bevel that needed some extra attention on the grinder. Using my freehand method I was able to tweak the grind until it worked as I wanted, I think though, that if I was using a jig I would have no choice and would just have to struggle on.

Partly this is down to experience and knowing how I expect my gouge to cut but I can't help feeling if I had been using a jig I would have been frustrated. This must be a real problem for beginners because a sharp tool, as Nev said earlier in the thread, makes life sooooo much easier!!

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this.

Cheers

Richard

 

[CHJ]

.... I went about sharpening it to my preferred shape but found it didn't cut quite the same as my old gouge. I realised that the slight difference in flute meant there was more metal in one area of bevel that needed some extra attention on the grinder. Using my freehand method I was able to tweak the grind until it worked as I wanted, I think though, that if I was using a jig I would have no choice and would just have to struggle on.
........I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this.
....

I came across this when deciding to experiment with an Ellsworth long grind, I found I had to modify the angles and position of my jig considerably to match a gouge that had been done for me by a supplier, (they had done it freehand) No way would either of two other gouges I already had (hamlet & crown) with similar flutes grind to the same profile with the same settings.

For the record Ellsworth and me don't get on together for my type of turning, I get on much better with shorter grinds much like Richards gouges shown in the Mag.
Maybe it's to do with the fact I tend to use a lot of the tools much like I would for metal turning.

Determined to practise none jig bowl gouge sharpening more, see if I can go more than a week without having to recover the shape with a jig.

 

[naulattaa]

I use a mix of tormek, grinder and belt sander (been using for a few years now) -> all with the tormek jigs/jig holders.

I dont get enough practice to be able to do a good enough job in freehand sharpening the more complex forms (especially the Ellsworth grind... Tried to duplicate the grind to an old gouge freehand but failed and almost ran out of flute )

IMHO its the results that matter, use what you have and do your best.

 

[12345Peter]

Hi all

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this.

Cheers

Richard

I can remember my first attempts at sharpening freehand, having only started turning about October/November last year. I had never had instruction and made a complete mess of it, the only tool I managed to sharpen well was the roughing gouge.

I watched the Gary Rance's DVD section on sharpening and he made it look so easy, so I tried again, but it still didn't work well. I forgot to say that Gary showed me how to sharpenen his 1/2" round skew and after a couple of goes I now have no problem doing that freehand. I bought the Sorby universal sharpening system and straight off my gouges were sharp and I could continue to turn again.

I would love to be able to sharpen all my tools freehand and I do still try to, knowing that if I mess it up I can use the jig to get back to a useable tool.

I am only just getting to the point where I can see that if I change the grind I can effect a better cut, or at least think I can. Maybe a one to one session on sharpening would be beneficial with second or third back-up session if necessary, would be the way to go, but at least with the jig, I can continue to turn.

Regards

 

[Silverbirch]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, having tried various jigs, I am now using just the Wolverine platform to maintain the angle I require, either by resting the tool directly on it or using it to support my hand as I manipulate the tool.
This means that when I need to sharpen, I just switch the grinder on and a few seconds later I`m done. No fiddling with settings and measurements.
More importantly, I believe I`m learning to fine tune my tools to the cuts I want to make. My sharpening skills are developing in tandem with my turning skills, so I feel I`m making progress towards control and mastery of the whole turning process.
I still have some way to go before I can consistently produce the results I`m aiming for.
My jigs are still stowed away in the cupboard, ready to be resurrected if I lose heart :lol:

Ian

 

[TEP]

Hi all

Partly this is down to experience and knowing how I expect my gouge to cut but I can't help feeling if I had been using a jig I would have been frustrated. This must be a real problem for beginners because a sharp tool, as Nev said earlier in the thread, makes life sooooo much easier!!

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this.

Cheers

Richard

I sharpened all my tools freehand until the time a few years back when there was a great show about the so called 'Ellsworth, Celtic, Irish' grinds that everyone was advocating at the time. I tried to emulate the shape freehand but did find the edge wanting, and defy anyone to get a consistent bevel around the whole edge.

So came the time of me making my copy of the Wolverine. I only sharpen my long grind gouges on it, all other tools are still worked on the flat table. Normal bowl gouge grinds are done on the table as well. IMO when a newbie buys a jig it is because they are/or think they are having problems after reading the blurb in magazine articles. They can then begin to think that their way of sharpening is wrong, and will be perfect 'if only they could do it this way'.

As with most ideas in this hobby you take 5 turners and ask a question, and you get 5 differing answers, and what makes it even more confusing is that each of the 5 ways would probably achieve the end goal admirably.

As said I only use a 'vari grind' jig for my long grind gouges, and use a flat jig (table) to do all the rest. Only once have I seen a old turner at a show many years ago that actually tickled the edge of his tools on a grindstone with no jig what so ever.

Finally, there is often a slight snobbery about 'freehand' against 'jig' sharpening, at the end of the day I do this hobby to turn, sharpening is only one of many disciplines to learn to allow you to turn proficiently.

Does it really matter how you get your tools sharp?

 

[Paul Hannaby]

I used to sharpen all my tools freehand with a tilting table but a few years ago I started using a jig. I used to use a sorby jig, which is obviously derived from the tormek jig and now I use a tormek jig because it can easily be transferred between my dry and wet grinders.

I used (and still use) the same angles and profiles for freehand and jig sharpening but the big difference I find with using a jig is that the tools last a great deal longer because I lose less metal each time I sharpen and I get less facets on the bevels allowing a better cut and cleaner curves as a result.

I use the gouge jig for my spindle gouges (and a couple of scrapers) but I still sharpen all my bowl gouges freehand because I don't use a fingernail grind on them. I also have a tormek jig I can use for skews etc. but I rarely put those on the grinder anyway - I usually sharpen them freehand with a diamond slip.

Richard is right in what he says about gouges needing more grinding on the thicker areas but this is equally easy to balance with a jig as it is freehand.

In answer to Ian's question - yes it does matter how you get your tools sharp because a sharp tool with an unusable edge is no good to anyone. Getting them sharp is only half the battle. The edge shape and geometry also contribute to how the tool works (or doesn't work).