Some questions on Japanese Chisels.

[Benchwayze]

Rob

As you say Jim's shop was superbly kitted out. Just like mine; :lol: except mine is in a bit of a mess at the moment; not at all like Jim's place. :mrgreen: I am trying to decide whether or not I should make a smaller new workbench. The magnitude of that task is somewhat daunting at the moment. Yet I must grasp the nettle

John. (hammer)

 

[Trevanion]

I remember reading some old magazines I've got (I think Practical Woodworking) and there's always an article by Kingshott in them, from memory he had an absolutely tiny workshop and had a series of holes in the wall to the outside (Or windows I can't remember) to accommodate machining long timbers that wouldn't fit in there. If I get a bit of time I'll have to look through them and see If I can find it again.

 

[D_W]

Japanese chisels need regular use (that or meticulous storage). Leave them in a chisel roll in an unheated shed and they will rust quickly and badly, far worse than most western chisels. !

I see no evidence of this with my Japanese chisels. I barely use them these days but they are fine in an unheated workshop on Dartmoor. They may be worse than western ones for rust but still perfectly good IME.

The older and more plain tools of western origin suffer the same fate at about the same rate.

Current files are also the first things to rust (that I notice) but if they're rusting, other things will soon, too.

 

[dannyr]

Sometimes it's forgotten in discussion of the laminated steel of Japanese chisels, that this structure was used in almost identical ways in the days of Sheffield/UK edge tool making when crucible steel was introduced ie late 18th C to late 19thC and beyond -- the best crucible steel was not cheap, so an efficient way of using it was to forge-weld it onto a backing of (proper) wrought iron - a tough, malleable and weldable iron pure of most unwanted impurities, but with distinctive silica "stringers". You can easily see this in most older Sheffield made thick mortise chisels or tapered blades for wood-bodied planes. I have a wonderful draw-knife, probably made by a village smith, with this construction - the edge-holding is something else, and easy to sharpen.


This is in no way to deny that the craft of traditional Japanese tool-making (mostly in small smithies, almost lost in Europe/UK) is really impressive. Personally my taste would not be for the showy Damascus steel backing, but for the two or three layer hard carbon steel on old wrought iron. Incidentally a favourite source for this wrought iron is/was the ancient wrought anchor chain from 19th to early 20thC -- sold by Britain to the Imperial Japanese Navy and merchant marine -later reforged into chisels/tools --- 'warships into ploughshares'. Either by rusting differentially over time or by purposeful etching the wrought iron can get a pretty 'woodgrain' look - no function at all but shows the structure nicely. If you look at an ancient anchor and chain as sometimes in a park or a square in a seaside town, you can see this grain clearly.


Danny (Sheffield)

 

[D_W]

I don't think that most of the japanese think much of the etched layered steel or etched wrought iron, either. They know that kind of stuff sells well to western customers, though. Perfectly and precisely made with very crisp lines, but still plain, is more respectable there.

Times may be changing if non-professionals are buying the tools. Ichichiro and Kiyotada chisels don't look like modern art, though.

I recall talking to someone who was straw purchasing for me in japan, and he was in a tokyo hardware store where the owner was complaining about how decorative Tasai chisels are, as they're actually good quality. I'd assume tasai is more popular in the US and Europe than it is in japan. Kamisoris are another thing that has gone back into production due to export and not domestic use. I used to read a razor forum and someone was traveling to japan hoping to look at kamisoris, and a japanese forum member said "they are difficult to find on the ground here - they're sold mostly to westerners".

That's not a compliment when someone says that!

 

[woodbloke66]

I don't think that most of the japanese think much of the etched layered steel or etched wrought iron, either. They know that kind of stuff sells well to western customers, though. Perfectly and precisely made with very crisp lines, but still plain, is more respectable there.

Times may be changing if non-professionals are buying the tools. Ichichiro and Kiyotada chisels don't look like modern art, though.

I recall talking to someone who was straw purchasing for me in japan, and he was in a tokyo hardware store where the owner was complaining about how decorative Tasai chisels are, as they're actually good quality. I'd assume tasai is more popular in the US and Europe than it is in japan. Kamisoris are another thing that has gone back into production due to export and not domestic use. I used to read a razor forum and someone was traveling to japan hoping to look at kamisoris, and a japanese forum member said "they are difficult to find on the ground here - they're sold mostly to westerners".

That's not a compliment when someone says that!

I'd agree. It's very difficult to find the highly decorative, etched chisels in Japan and they don't use them, being made for export to the West. Plain, top quality chisels, sometimes with a variety of different timbers for the handles (mostly oak though) are what Japanese craftsmen use - Rob

 

[--Tom--]

Nice steel well sharpened will always do the job. Lamination to make efficient use of scarce hardenable material gives some artistry, but if you have the luxury of cheap hardenable material you make something all hard and Japanese smiths make a luxury of this with honyaki being the pinnacle of a smiths craft. Often Japanese smiths were using Sheffield steel (Togo reigo) or Swedish steel to produce their best product so it’s leas about the raw material and more about the perceived artistry or (and I would heavily weight this) having a consumer base that respected their tools and would sharpen them and use them to their limits.

I really like hard steel that sharpens easily which makes simple carbon steels well heat treated ideal? And those abound in older Sheffield chisels. Powered grinding makes refurb really easy and we’re blessed with a market full of good stuff for a low price

 

[Dovetaildave]

OP wrote; "Am I considering buying some Japanese chisels? If they are superior for dovetailing I might. "

The lands on this cheap Taiwanese chisel are .5mm or maybe slightly less.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Ttrees]

The lands on this cheap Taiwanese chisel are .5mm or maybe slightly less.

Nothing you couldn't do yourself, might want to get the process down on a cheap chisel before a nice vintage one though.
Haven't done so to a chisel, but I found grinding a vintage plane iron into a smaller cutter with bevels surprisingly easy on the bench grinder
and that was on a 6" one with no rests or anything.

Tom

 

[D_W]

I had the koyamaichi chisels and liked them for cleaning out sockets.

AT some point, I bought two of the newer buck brothers chisels made here (they're about $10 each, and they aren't very good quality, but decent - steel hardness reminds me a lot of some of the blue chips that were a little soft, or the current offerings from robt sorby that must be made soft for some reason that I don't know - an engineer once told me he thought they were doing that to meet a government definition or astm standard). Anyway, I hollow ground the sides of the buck chisels on a decent grinder (be careful if this is new to you) and use only those two chisels and sold all of the expensive japanese chisels for this purpose.

I still have expensive chisels, just not those. I like the fact that the bucks are really easy to sharpen and I don't have to have any regard for them because they're not worth anything - I can just use them.

In my opinion, the work that a chisel like that is doing is generally separate from really critical close corner chopping (more often hand removal of something in a corner). The koyamaichi chisels are perfectly fine to sharpen freehand, but they take a little more paying attention than the typical oire nomi because the jigane (soft layer) is so small.

I still like thinner japanese chisels than the typical oire nomi, but not with a top like that.

Where you guys are, I'm sure you can find chisels for a pound sometimes - seems like a better solution to me.


Japanese makers didn't generally make chisels like the ones you see for sale at LV until they started selling to westerners. It's not like they didn't make dovetails in their furniture, either. They often make hidden dovetail corner joints, but they have enough taste to hide most of the joint. I guess we don't.