Solar panels: do they save money?

[clogs]

right now the temp is just 10 deg C...here in Crete.....
overcast (all day) but this will give us enough hot water (via a solar water heater) for 2 showers and 1 load in the washing machine if needed...plus the usual washing up etc.....
as there is only the two of us we use hot water for the washing machine on sunny days when available.....my wife hot fills the washing machine by hand, we have a laundry room with a flexi hose direct from the hot water circuit just for that job.......we never cold fill the washing machine as the electric heater sucks away the money....
also remember, in the summer our house is rented, those 4 bedrooms have washing done (sheets etc) twice a week, thats a lot of hot water.....!!!!...

just so u know.....
the water in the closed heating system is just car type anti freeze.....

as for roof maintenece.....any kind of add on solar panels should only be fitted on a GOOD roof, any doubts dont do it.....but if it needs work get it done anyway....who wants a leaking roof.....?
I have fitted a fair few solar panels on different roof types and the only one I would refuse is those small 6-8" square type tiles.....by moderen standards they are a rubbish roof covering anyway...
as for me, there is a def saving in solar water heating....
besides gas and elec prices will never go down.....

 

[NormanB]

I'm planning an installation to go in before the summer.
I'm retired and see this as a lifetime buy so I don't have to spend time on it ever again.
As we have a decent sized SE facing roof and I will pair it up with storage batteries, I expect to be self sufficient for electricity 9 months of the year, with surplus to spare to charge a car and / or contribute to the hot water for 6 months.
It's expensive and a big investment for me.
It will take at least 10 yrs to break even, but the panels are guaranteed for 25 yrs and the batteries should do better than the 10 years life that is assumed in the financials.
In your situation, I wouldn't,, but think where you can you put the money that will make enough of a return to keep pace with energy costs ?
In mine, I don't see it as a great investment so much as buying insurance against prices going silly in future, and it has to be now or we won't live long enough to get the benefit of it

And like everyone, I'd like to do what I can to be "green". I'm not entirely sure that this is because the whole life calculations of what goes into making the parts, installing them and cleaning up afterwards are too complicated for me to figure out with any confidence. At least I'll take a lot of my load off the grid which is going to get hammered as electric vehicle numbers grow.

You are going to need a decent acreage of solar panels to charge an EV. Mounting solar panels is essentially ‘buying your electricity forward’ and is probably a good use of capital if you are sure you will be staying in the property for ten years.

 

[Sideways]

You are going to need a decent acreage of solar panels to charge an EV. Mounting solar panels is essentially ‘buying your electricity forward’ and is probably a good use of capital if you are sure you will be staying in the property for ten years.

8.5kW peak / 6kW inverter / a large storage battery
I'm retired, don't do high mileage and there's no reason we would move from here

 

[hairy]

Those of us who own their panels (of which we are one) have a straight forward system: come sale time the buyers solicitor requests information about the installation (MCS Certification) and about the FIT contract and the average annual yield. This is done during the enquiries stage. If they and the buyer are satisfied, the sale goes ahead.

As for "rent a roof" - whole different matter. Some people suggest that a house cannot be sold as there is, basically, a sitting tenant. I've no idea if this is the case. Certainly, I would walk away.

If the system is fitted well, the amount of roof maintenance is minimal. There is a minor amount of disruption where the frame holding the panels is attached to the rafters and there needs to be some place for the cables to enter the roof space. This can either be a single point of entry, several points (one per group) or individually. Each cable is relatively small diameter so can be slotted up under tiles and between roofing felt (that's how ours is done).

As people here have said some got in early with a worthwhile payment tarriff. That wouldn't apply to the new owners, contracts would not be transferable as far as I've read? So the value to a potential buyer may be considerably less than what it is to you?
Can you still get a roof ladder to hook on the ridge above where the panels are fitted? If you did would the ladder bend under someone's weight to rest on the black panel and maybe damage it? Again, just wondering, no idea what issues there may end up being?

 

[NikNak]

We've had our 3.6kW system, 14 panels, running since Nov 2012. Added a Solar iBoost to heat the hot water tank 4yrs ago. And last summer i changed my car to an ev and had a Zappi installed. House/roof faces ESE so we get the early clear blue morning skies. The initial system paid for itself (if memory serves me) in just over 6yrs. As i understand it you can fit these things yourself, but i am 95% certain you CANNOT commission them to work OR get an electrician to do it either (doesn't matter how competent he is) unless he is MCS accredited to do so.

It looks like you're in West Sussex(?) we're just across the county line East in Hampshire, you're more than welcome to message me and come and have a 'proper' look at our system, see the geeky spreadsheet i have going back 9yrs at all the captured sun data, and ask as many questions as you like over a cuppa


Nick

 

[ian33a]

As people here have said some got in early with a worthwhile payment tarriff. That wouldn't apply to the new owners, contracts would not be transferable as far as I've read? So the value to a potential buyer may be considerably less than what it is to you?
Can you still get a roof ladder to hook on the ridge above where the panels are fitted? If you did would the ladder bend under someone's weight to rest on the black panel and maybe damage it? Again, just wondering, no idea what issues there may end up being?

I understand that FIT's are transferrable - certainly we plan to transfer ours to the new owner of our house (and their solicitor has already asked) and we plan to claim FIT payments on the place that we are in the process of buying.

 

[NikNak]

I understand that FIT's are transferrable - certainly we plan to transfer ours to the new owner of our house (and their solicitor has already asked) and we plan to claim FIT payments on the place that we are in the process of buying.

This is true, see here.... What Happens to Feed-in Tariff Payments When You Move?

 

[Stevekane]

Our neighbour has the PV panels with the full feed in tariff plus he realised some years ago that when the sun shines his meter is running backwards,,,so its a triple win,,,its apparently a quirk with some meters and means that they are at times desperate to use some elect on the meter in to push it beyond its last reading,,,lucky buggers!
Steve.

 

[Ozi]

There is a lot of talk of pay back time and it's obviously relevant the situation when I installed my hot water system was slightly different, I was earning good money but new that it wouldn't last, I didn't miss the money then but now I earn much less I'm glad I invested when I did. It could be similar for people coming up to retirement, reducing your future bills feels good and provides at least some security against situations such as we see at the moment. Yesterday the cost of my gas and electricity went up 50% with another rise due later in the year. I'm fortunate I will be able to afford it but still very glad of every Watt the panels give. Also switched most of the house lights to LED, cant help saying look at that 18W when I switch on the kitchen lights, have to say it to my self or SWMBO would have me certified by now.

 

[John Brown]

This is true, see here.... What Happens to Feed-in Tariff Payments When You Move?

We bought a house with both solar water heating and PV almost three years ago. We were lucky enough to "inherit" the original feed in tariff for PV. There may be other scenarios, depending upon the initial contract, but that's what happened for us. When we moved in, the FIT seemed ridiculously high, but the way electricity prices are going, it might well seem low in a couple of years!

 

[manicminer]

Do you have an unvented or vented hot water tank?

Its a pressurised tank so I guess thats unvented? The PV is diverted to a standard immersion element, when a box of tricks detects a surplus of PV energy and when the water can take heat. Whilst inefficient, it is the most visible evidence I have that the roof array is working. A glance up at the meter shows me the energy going into the hot water. Peaked out at just over 8kWh gone in today. PV is more efficient in this colder weather, however the sun is also lower in the sky.

 

[manicminer]

Our neighbour has the PV panels with the full feed in tariff plus he realised some years ago that when the sun shines his meter is running backwards,,,so its a triple win,,,its apparently a quirk with some meters and means that they are at times desperate to use some elect on the meter in to push it beyond its last reading,,,lucky pippers!
Steve.

Our meter also ran backwards. Our new build (Taylor Wimpey) had saved some cash by using recon meters - these had no backstop so when energy was fed in from the PV, the meter went backward.
What started out as a neat parlour trick, eventually started to wear me down, as I was having to cook the books in terms of meter readings, given the energy companies would periodically come round to check the readings themselves.
I couldnt live with it any longer and eventually fessed up to my new energy supplier. They promptly fitted a electronic meter.

 

[ian33a]

Its a pressurised tank so I guess thats unvented? The PV is diverted to a standard immersion element, when a box of tricks detects a surplus of PV energy and when the water can take heat. Whilst inefficient, it is the most visible evidence I have that the roof array is working. A glance up at the meter shows me the energy going into the hot water. Peaked out at just over 8kWh gone in today. PV is more efficient in this colder weather, however the sun is also lower in the sky.

We have a similar system which I built and installed myself. We have a little box as part of the system which periodically pulses a few LED's onto the wall as a haze - red when the system is importing from the grid, orange when we are heating water and green when we are exporting. It's a nice feeling when the colours are orange or green. The box also shows instantaneous power numerically, be it imported or exported - but the LED's are an easier thing to see from a distance.

 

[Oldman]

I really wanted Solar panels when the first FIT was set but I had no spare money, I watched as the FIT payments reduced along with the cost of installation until in January 2014 it got to £5k to install a 12 panel system and I joined the club. The total cost was £4950 and in the sunny south it was all paid for by year 6 with free bonus electricity too. Would I have been better off taking a £15k loan and going for the system when the FIT was maximum? with hindsight yes I would have by a considerable amount each year, but I average £730 back in FIT payments per year and free electricity too though in real terms thats just become a much less percentage of the real cost of electricity.
In 2011 the FIT was 54pence/kw and dropped to 15pence/kw by the time I joined.
Probably a bit geeky but I monitor my system via Eco eye smart pv, some software to interface to a Raspberry Pi and output to PVoutput.org.

 

[Sandyn]

Doesn't FIT come from a green levy paid for by other electricity users? many who struggle to survive and can barely buy their own electricity. I don't think that is fair.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Indeed. It's the poor subsidising the rich. Mustn't let the thread deteriorate into a political rant, though.
My friend took early retirement with a nice lump sum about 20 years ago. He paid £15,500 for his set up, it's long paid for itself and he still gets the 41p or thereabouts per unit from it.

 

[NikNak]

Doesn't FIT come from a green levy paid for by other electricity users? many who struggle to survive and can barely buy their own electricity. I don't think that is fair.

Yes it does. As does the massive subsidies paid to the wind energy companies that started over 30 years ago when wind energy was just a whim in the minds of beardy weirdy's. Look where we are now....

When we moved into our current home (20ish yrs ago) there was a scheme at the time to go and buy loft insulation at crazy low prices. Seem to recall it was around £2.50 a large roll..!! We made 'several' trips to our local B&Q and loaded up the estate car with as many rolls of the stuff as we could squeeze in. Again seem to recall we bought around 20ish rolls of the stuff. Then spent several weekends very painfully (knees on skinny joists) laying the stuff in the loft, we have a very low pitched roof so it wasn't an easy task.

Move on another couple of years and there was a scheme whereby you could have cavity wall insulation installed by the energy companies. Again heavily subsidised by grants.

I also recall watching an episode of Dragons Den many years ago where Deborah Meaden and Theo Paphitis were very quick to 'jump on the bandwagon' and invest in some project promoting the installation of Solar panels saying that "its a no brainer." Sadly(?) the business folded just a few years later, read here... Dragons' Den solar power business goes bust

just found a clip....



We are with Octopus energy. And where we have been 'lucky' in the past benefitting from these schemes, quite often we will receive an email from Octopus saying "would you like to donate xyz to those less well off and are struggling to pay their energy bills..." and we always click YES.



Nick

 

[Sandyn]

Mustn't let the thread deteriorate into a political rant, though

no, agreed. I did look at a 8kWp system but according to the calculator, lifetime net benefit was only £193. I'm sure it would perform better than that, but in my case I would be better spending some of the £10k installation cost on reducing the heat loss from my property.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

The average domestic 4kw array produces ~3000kwh pa - higher down south, lower where the weather is less clement.

20 years ago it would cost (say) £15k to buy a 4kw system. A FiT of (say) 40p per unit would generate an income of £1200 - it would take 13 years to payback the system cost. Add interest on a loan, or interest foregone, and the payback would be ~15 years.

Without FiT almost no-one except the financially illiterate or the environmentally very concerned would have invested in PVs.

Payments under the FiT scheme are not a simple case of subsidising the rich at the expense of the poor - it was the only way in which PVs were ever likely to be generally adopted.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

We are with Octopus energy. And where we have been 'lucky' in the past benefitting from these schemes, quite often we will receive an email from Octopus saying "would you like to donate xyz to those less well off and are struggling to pay their energy bills..." and we always click YES.
Nick

We did the same with the cheap insulation. I still have large box of CFLs (2p each).

Ours is Octopus as well, but I strongly object to their giving money to BLM. I'll see what happens when the fix ends in August. Maybe the people whose solar systems I'm subsidising are the ones who should be giving money to the less well off? Just a thought.

I know off no one who's had solar systems fitted for altruistic reasons, it's always for financial reasons. Saving the planet always comes way down the list.