thetyreman
Established Member
the best solution is going 100% offgrid so the fuckers can't keep raising prices
Solar panels: do they save money?
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just can't decide
I have been using Hot water panels for 20 years....they are very efficient.....
no idea where Lornzl get 231 yeras from....?
A mentioned a cost of £6000 for a system seems extreme....
Here a 250 liter simple system (no pump just thermal flow) is around €1200 - €1500.....
when in france we wanted to combine the solar system to the wood fired boiler central heating....
this needed a water cylinder with two heating coils.....we bought a st/steel cylinder for the extra high pressure from the water mains....
as an add, better than 50% of standard water cyl in the UK already have an extra heating coil but just blanked off....
Be warned there are two type of system, fully pressurised and gravity....
I chose the gravity system because it so simple and less to go wrong....
Which type really depends on what layout u already have.....
Places like Sweden and Norway use em as well.....
We are lucky here as the sun shines a lot.....
but our rental house 4 bed x 4 bathroom has a 300lit hot water tank with two solar panels
and never once needed a back up for hot water....even tho the guests are very wasteful....
when we ruturn to the house in winter we only need to fire up the wood boiler prob less than 10 days over that time to get water temp up a bit....
I also bought a very large German used wood stove with a back boiler just in case....
If I were in the UK I'd install that in the front room, there's alaways plenty of waste wood around...
just means getting of ur bottom to fill up the fire.....with what I can see of ur gas prices this looks cheap to run.....
As for PV, I'd love it but I need 3phase....so a bit higher cost in setting up and at my age not worth it...but I'd just love to tell the leky board to go shove it....
As for selling back to the board I just wouldn't bother because of the extra cost of the fussy electronics (smart meters etc) anyway I guess they dont wanna pay a decent price ...
So personally I'd throw the extra away.....tho it could help heat a swimming pool......hahaha....
As for PV effic.....it's never better than 20% effic for years....we need the next jump in materials techno to get better effic....
and after 5 years or so doesn't the effic drop by 1% per year or so for the next 10 years ....?
Plus the £1000's profit in the installers pockets of PV would be better used buying a better system and doing it urself apart from the elec hook up....
just sayin....
no idea where Lornzl get 231 yeras from....?
A mentioned a cost of £6000 for a system seems extreme....
Here a 250 liter simple system (no pump just thermal flow) is around €1200 - €1500.....
when in france we wanted to combine the solar system to the wood fired boiler central heating....
this needed a water cylinder with two heating coils.....we bought a st/steel cylinder for the extra high pressure from the water mains....
as an add, better than 50% of standard water cyl in the UK already have an extra heating coil but just blanked off....
Be warned there are two type of system, fully pressurised and gravity....
I chose the gravity system because it so simple and less to go wrong....
Which type really depends on what layout u already have.....
Places like Sweden and Norway use em as well.....
We are lucky here as the sun shines a lot.....
but our rental house 4 bed x 4 bathroom has a 300lit hot water tank with two solar panels
and never once needed a back up for hot water....even tho the guests are very wasteful....
when we ruturn to the house in winter we only need to fire up the wood boiler prob less than 10 days over that time to get water temp up a bit....
I also bought a very large German used wood stove with a back boiler just in case....
If I were in the UK I'd install that in the front room, there's alaways plenty of waste wood around...
just means getting of ur bottom to fill up the fire.....with what I can see of ur gas prices this looks cheap to run.....
As for PV, I'd love it but I need 3phase....so a bit higher cost in setting up and at my age not worth it...but I'd just love to tell the leky board to go shove it....
As for selling back to the board I just wouldn't bother because of the extra cost of the fussy electronics (smart meters etc) anyway I guess they dont wanna pay a decent price ...
So personally I'd throw the extra away.....tho it could help heat a swimming pool......hahaha....
As for PV effic.....it's never better than 20% effic for years....we need the next jump in materials techno to get better effic....
and after 5 years or so doesn't the effic drop by 1% per year or so for the next 10 years ....?
Plus the £1000's profit in the installers pockets of PV would be better used buying a better system and doing it urself apart from the elec hook up....
just sayin....
We fitted them 10 years ago when the FIT was at its maximum - as was the cost of the hardware. Due to shadowing being a problem we went down the micro invert route and this is more expensive up front.
The system has, more or less, just paid for itself in pure FIT payment terms at about now. So, 10 years ROI.
What is less obvious are the "soft" benefits: I also fitted a PV dump system myself. With the installation that we have, the system measures power exported from the PV system BEFORE it is available to the rest of the house and the national grid. Thus, if you are able to use all of the generated electricity instantaneously, you receive payment for everything generated as well as being able to use it and not export it. This is perfectly legal and only really effective if you can save the energy in a battery system and re-use it later. Our system does not have the battery. The PV dump system takes some of the surplus and routes it to the immersion heater - but only when there is a surplus. How much we save in hot water heating is unknown but, I suspect that it is far more than the material cost of the equipment.
On top of all of this, we have to some degree, changed the way we use power. We tend to turn on appliances when the sun is out or expected to be out. Being home during the day, this makes it easier to time. Typically though, most people use their power in the evenings when the sun isn't out so, unless they have a battery, the system doesn't benefit them.
Finally, there is a quiescent drain in our house with stuff that is always running. It's something like 450W. So, whatever power the panels are generating offsets this and we get an export payment as well.
If I was in a position to fit them again, I doubt I would. The inverter manufacturer went out of business and thankfully, none of the inverters have died (there are 14 of them). I've heard that the more normal single inverters need replacement every 10 years or so. So this needs to be built into the cost model. Plus, the FIT is far less generous now.
We're in the process of moving and people don't seem that bothered about the panels. Many don't understand them or see them as a benefit - possibly more of an eye sore. Once they get their revised fuel bills, that may change. Our new place, if all goes to plan, also has them. That will be a benefit for us as we will get the FIT. There is also provision for solar water heating (but the panels are not in - just the pipework). It's something that I will look into as the house is heated by oil.
The house also has a couple of wood burners - and a steady supply of wood. I see this as an energy saving method for the future.
I will also consider a ground source heat pump as I see this as a way to reduce energy costs - but only if the maths really works out - and, so far, I'm not convinced.
The system has, more or less, just paid for itself in pure FIT payment terms at about now. So, 10 years ROI.
What is less obvious are the "soft" benefits: I also fitted a PV dump system myself. With the installation that we have, the system measures power exported from the PV system BEFORE it is available to the rest of the house and the national grid. Thus, if you are able to use all of the generated electricity instantaneously, you receive payment for everything generated as well as being able to use it and not export it. This is perfectly legal and only really effective if you can save the energy in a battery system and re-use it later. Our system does not have the battery. The PV dump system takes some of the surplus and routes it to the immersion heater - but only when there is a surplus. How much we save in hot water heating is unknown but, I suspect that it is far more than the material cost of the equipment.
On top of all of this, we have to some degree, changed the way we use power. We tend to turn on appliances when the sun is out or expected to be out. Being home during the day, this makes it easier to time. Typically though, most people use their power in the evenings when the sun isn't out so, unless they have a battery, the system doesn't benefit them.
Finally, there is a quiescent drain in our house with stuff that is always running. It's something like 450W. So, whatever power the panels are generating offsets this and we get an export payment as well.
If I was in a position to fit them again, I doubt I would. The inverter manufacturer went out of business and thankfully, none of the inverters have died (there are 14 of them). I've heard that the more normal single inverters need replacement every 10 years or so. So this needs to be built into the cost model. Plus, the FIT is far less generous now.
We're in the process of moving and people don't seem that bothered about the panels. Many don't understand them or see them as a benefit - possibly more of an eye sore. Once they get their revised fuel bills, that may change. Our new place, if all goes to plan, also has them. That will be a benefit for us as we will get the FIT. There is also provision for solar water heating (but the panels are not in - just the pipework). It's something that I will look into as the house is heated by oil.
The house also has a couple of wood burners - and a steady supply of wood. I see this as an energy saving method for the future.
I will also consider a ground source heat pump as I see this as a way to reduce energy costs - but only if the maths really works out - and, so far, I'm not convinced.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
I think you get more heat energy out of a solar thermal panel of the same area, compared to PV. The downside is that it's a 'wet' system, which in my opinion is bound to require (some) more maintenance.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
Let's not forget all the lead in our car batteries and on most of our roofs. Then all the chemicals we put into the air and water by burning stuff (wood/coal/gas) etc etc etc.....
Maybe that has something to do with the Greek climate, I believe you get a lot of sunshine and warmth which is something we can only imagine for six months of the year!
Keith 66
Established Member
We had pv panels fitted about 3 years ago just before the feed in tarriff ended. We get about £25 pay back every quarter.
Solar panels make sense if you have an electric vehicle & work from home as you are charging it from home produced electricity. If you are commuting to work in that car you are not gaining anything.
Solar panels make sense if you have an electric vehicle & work from home as you are charging it from home produced electricity. If you are commuting to work in that car you are not gaining anything.
Keith Cocker
Established Member
I live in the Lancashire Pennines. Solar panels? You must be joking. 
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I installed 90 evacuated tubes for solar heating in 2005 or 2006. Or was it 80 tubes? I can't remember and I am not going out in the snow to check. I think I spent about 3K euro on the tubes, controller etc, plus maybe another 1K to 2K on pipework, heat exchangers and the like. This is from memory and prices have no doubt changed since then, so take that with a pinch of salt. I installed everything myself so there was no installation labour charge.
This set-up produces about 7000 kWh per year of heat, as measured by the controller that runs the pump. During the heating season, which is pretty long here, that supplements our space heating. If no space heating is needed then the solar energy goes into our hot water tank. I manually switch between these two options.
Strangely peak output is during the coldest time of the year (January to March), not the warmest time. This is because we get very clear skies when it is cold, whereas in summer there is often some haze. This is good for me because during the winter I can use all available solar energy for space heating.
I don't actually know what our electricity prices are so I can't calculate the payback period. Even if I could, it would be different in the UK. I have been quite happy with the system though. The only issue is that due to the layout of the house the pipe runs between the solar panels and the hot water tank are quite long. It would be more efficient if these pipes were shorter but I could not manage that.
I have no experience with PV. At the time I installed my system a thermal system seemed to be a better bet. I think PV has dropped in price a lot since then, so maybe a thermal system is no longer the best way to go.
This set-up produces about 7000 kWh per year of heat, as measured by the controller that runs the pump. During the heating season, which is pretty long here, that supplements our space heating. If no space heating is needed then the solar energy goes into our hot water tank. I manually switch between these two options.
Strangely peak output is during the coldest time of the year (January to March), not the warmest time. This is because we get very clear skies when it is cold, whereas in summer there is often some haze. This is good for me because during the winter I can use all available solar energy for space heating.
I don't actually know what our electricity prices are so I can't calculate the payback period. Even if I could, it would be different in the UK. I have been quite happy with the system though. The only issue is that due to the layout of the house the pipe runs between the solar panels and the hot water tank are quite long. It would be more efficient if these pipes were shorter but I could not manage that.
I have no experience with PV. At the time I installed my system a thermal system seemed to be a better bet. I think PV has dropped in price a lot since then, so maybe a thermal system is no longer the best way to go.
We have PV panels which were installed before the cut-off date of 12 December 2011. Only a small array at 1.75kWh output maximum. The break-even point was 6.5 years later and we currently get between £850 to £950 pa back in FIT (depending on the weather) which more than pays for our grid input in leccy and goes a fair way towards our gas costs before the recent energy increases.
Owd Jockey
Established Member
I have had solar panels fitted for 8 years now. I first noticed neighbours having them installed, but basically they were just renting out their roof for 20 years, the installation cost them nothing, but they got free electricity during daylight hours. The Feed in Tariff was collected by the installer.
At the time I had just retired and had spare cash. I did the math and decided to pay for a full installation which cost £9500. This was for a 5Kw system, although I had room for and wanted a 6Kw system. The bog standard home install is 4Kw and no approval is needed, however, the Energy generator (Western Power) did not allow my 6Kw for local infrastructure reasons, so I had to settle for 5Kw.
Overall, I would have to say this is the best investment I have ever made. I get approximately £800 per annum from my Energy supplier in the form of FIT , which is composed of two elements:- i) power I generated and ii) an assumption that 50% of the generated power will go back to the grid. Also, I get free electricity during the day and if you have the old style electricity meter, the meter will unwind itself over the summer months .i.e go backwards.
The panels and inverter have long guarantees, as well as the Government guarantee that FIT will be paid for 20 years. There is a theoretical reduction of 1% efficiency for each panel, so at the end of 20 years, tehioretically the panels would only be operating at 80% efficiency. Saying that, it really depends on the amount of sunshine we get. In the middle of winter on a dark grey wet day, at best I will generate 150 - 200 watt.
I have had one equipment failure so far, the generation meter, which records the amount of electricity units generated. I replaced this item myself for £30. I am not sure what the current Government arrangements are for solar panels, but it is something I am really glad I invested in.
The only real downside is, if you neighbourhood experiences a power failure during the day, then although you may be generating 4 or 5Kw on the roof, the Inverter shuts the system down. Obviously, you cannot have service repair workers working on the fault when you are sending your own generated energy down the line. In 8 years we have only had one daytime power failure, so not much of a downside.
At the time I had just retired and had spare cash. I did the math and decided to pay for a full installation which cost £9500. This was for a 5Kw system, although I had room for and wanted a 6Kw system. The bog standard home install is 4Kw and no approval is needed, however, the Energy generator (Western Power) did not allow my 6Kw for local infrastructure reasons, so I had to settle for 5Kw.
Overall, I would have to say this is the best investment I have ever made. I get approximately £800 per annum from my Energy supplier in the form of FIT , which is composed of two elements:- i) power I generated and ii) an assumption that 50% of the generated power will go back to the grid. Also, I get free electricity during the day and if you have the old style electricity meter, the meter will unwind itself over the summer months .i.e go backwards.
The panels and inverter have long guarantees, as well as the Government guarantee that FIT will be paid for 20 years. There is a theoretical reduction of 1% efficiency for each panel, so at the end of 20 years, tehioretically the panels would only be operating at 80% efficiency. Saying that, it really depends on the amount of sunshine we get. In the middle of winter on a dark grey wet day, at best I will generate 150 - 200 watt.
I have had one equipment failure so far, the generation meter, which records the amount of electricity units generated. I replaced this item myself for £30. I am not sure what the current Government arrangements are for solar panels, but it is something I am really glad I invested in.
The only real downside is, if you neighbourhood experiences a power failure during the day, then although you may be generating 4 or 5Kw on the roof, the Inverter shuts the system down. Obviously, you cannot have service repair workers working on the fault when you are sending your own generated energy down the line. In 8 years we have only had one daytime power failure, so not much of a downside.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
I think that there are now inverters/systems which do allow you to continue to use your own solar and/or battery in the event of a grid power failure - albeit after a short interlude.
RichardG
If at first you don’t succeed have a cup of tea.
Everyone's situation is so different that you need to do the sums for your household or get someone to do it for you. You also need to decide on your motivations, is it only to save money or are you looking for some resilience to grid outages or perhaps reducing your carbon footprint. Are you willing to change your usage to make use of the energy when the sun is shining? Battery storage changes the equation completely, again it may work for you. The biggest factor is your energy usage and when and how you use it.
All the data to do the calculations is freely available, if you have a smart meter then you may already have detailed energy usage for your household. A few hours with a spreadsheet will give you a ballpark figure.
The energy saving trust is a useful place to start, they have a simple calculator that allows you to model your situation.
Solar panels
All the data to do the calculations is freely available, if you have a smart meter then you may already have detailed energy usage for your household. A few hours with a spreadsheet will give you a ballpark figure.
The energy saving trust is a useful place to start, they have a simple calculator that allows you to model your situation.
Solar panels
manicminer
Established Member
I dont think you would add value to the house but it would be an incentive to a potential buyer if you were able to demonstrate the savings you had been making.
I have had a 4kW PV array for 8 years and love it, supplies all the power I need during the day and heats my water (via the immersion heater element) when Im not using it. I had 8kWh go into my water tank today as it was so bright.
Will definitely have them on my next house, even without the incentives its a nice feeling getting energy from the sun.
I have had a 4kW PV array for 8 years and love it, supplies all the power I need during the day and heats my water (via the immersion heater element) when Im not using it. I had 8kWh go into my water tank today as it was so bright.
Will definitely have them on my next house, even without the incentives its a nice feeling getting energy from the sun.
RobinBHM
Established Member
Although its a less efficient energy conversion than solar thermal -I like the concept of using a PV array to create electricity and use the hot water tank as an energy store.
Do you have an unvented or vented hot water tank?
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
The feed in tariff is history - it only served to subsidise PV when the capital costs were high. Few would otherwise invest if the payback period was 30 years ++.
I first looked at a system 12-15 years ago - my recollection is that the cost was £12-15k and with FiT a payback period of ~15 years was estimated. Cost did not include batteries. I didn't go ahead.
The cost of a 4 KW system installed would now be ~£6k but no FiT. Payback at last years prices would still be 12-15 years.
However energy costs are increasing. My monthly standing order may increase from ~£120 pm to ~£300 pm. Suddenly PV looks like it may be worthwhile.
But it will need to be combined with a battery. If surplus generation is fed back to the grid the returns are poor, and although retired most consumption is in the evening when dark. A battery adds (probably) £5-8k to the total installation cost.
I need to do some number crunching - total installation costs now seem to be £10-15k. Savings may be in the £1000-1500 pa. So payback in around 10 years assuming prices stay at current high levels.
It now starts to look like worth doing - particularly if in the next few years an EV may be an option. A greater commitment to green would make it seem more attractive!
I first looked at a system 12-15 years ago - my recollection is that the cost was £12-15k and with FiT a payback period of ~15 years was estimated. Cost did not include batteries. I didn't go ahead.
The cost of a 4 KW system installed would now be ~£6k but no FiT. Payback at last years prices would still be 12-15 years.
However energy costs are increasing. My monthly standing order may increase from ~£120 pm to ~£300 pm. Suddenly PV looks like it may be worthwhile.
But it will need to be combined with a battery. If surplus generation is fed back to the grid the returns are poor, and although retired most consumption is in the evening when dark. A battery adds (probably) £5-8k to the total installation cost.
I need to do some number crunching - total installation costs now seem to be £10-15k. Savings may be in the £1000-1500 pa. So payback in around 10 years assuming prices stay at current high levels.
It now starts to look like worth doing - particularly if in the next few years an EV may be an option. A greater commitment to green would make it seem more attractive!
heronviewer
Established Member
We installed solar panels about ten years ago. All costs recovered after eight years (including the cost of a bird nest removal). We do get the higher FIT, but the installation was more expensive then. It's a better investment than most !
I would like to make my own solar water heating system. A friend who lived for quite a while in Sweden was told if you pay to heat your water you will save with a solar water heating system. In Sweden, as Justforfuns experience would seem to agree with.
PV on a UK roof I seem to remember could get too complicated at sale time depending on contracts relating to it. If you don't own the panels how can you sell the roof? How many sellers will just walk away at that little complication? How do you fix the roof if needed, who replaces the pv to the suppliers standard after roof repair?
Just wondering.
PV on a UK roof I seem to remember could get too complicated at sale time depending on contracts relating to it. If you don't own the panels how can you sell the roof? How many sellers will just walk away at that little complication? How do you fix the roof if needed, who replaces the pv to the suppliers standard after roof repair?
Just wondering.
Those of us who own their panels (of which we are one) have a straight forward system: come sale time the buyers solicitor requests information about the installation (MCS Certification) and about the FIT contract and the average annual yield. This is done during the enquiries stage. If they and the buyer are satisfied, the sale goes ahead.
As for "rent a roof" - whole different matter. Some people suggest that a house cannot be sold as there is, basically, a sitting tenant. I've no idea if this is the case. Certainly, I would walk away.
If the system is fitted well, the amount of roof maintenance is minimal. There is a minor amount of disruption where the frame holding the panels is attached to the rafters and there needs to be some place for the cables to enter the roof space. This can either be a single point of entry, several points (one per group) or individually. Each cable is relatively small diameter so can be slotted up under tiles and between roofing felt (that's how ours is done).
