Smoothing plane

[D_W]

Hi Tom

I may yet send the bevel up smoother back and get the veritas custom 4. It’s mouth adjuster takes one complication out of the equation - hate the idea of moving the frog forward to adjust the mouth.

Moving the frog in a plane with a cap iron essentially never happens. You have to leave enough room in the mouth for the cap iron not to stick the shaving against the front of the mouth, and at the point it's set there, unless you start changing the iron thickness all the time, it will work for any shaving you could physically get out of a plane.

The draw of using a tight mouth on a plane is that it's simple. The problem is that it's limiting and it really doesn't provide a clean surface if it's functional, and still only in tiny thing shavings. It's a choke to prevent you from being able to take thicker shavings, and for that purpose, it works, but it punishes you with resistance and still lack of complete tearout protection. A steep planing angle or a cap iron will eliminate tearout. of those two, the easy one is limiting, the one that takes a couple of weeks to get the hang of isn't so much.

Moving the mouth creates a bigger problem - it creates the need for precise machining and clean surfaces inside the moving mouth, no rust, no dust, etc. if it's never moved, it's probably never a problem, but it's unnecessary.

 

[Ttrees]

On the forums, we can't really tell who is in which category above when they're asking questions and people are shy about stating their intent.

I'm taking a gamble I know exactly why, being not so mobile in last month or two.
Your term "category" could be swapped into a more fitting sentence,
as it does come across as pigeon holing someone.

My reply today, (mainly the section you quoted) sums it up,
which I felt was apt regarding some recent stuff on youtube by one of the most prominent gurus.
Proper daft video worth a laugh, if one can stop curling their toes.

I reckon most of the newcomers should be able to spot the great plane conspiracy
and their advocates from a mile away,
long before they develop too much trust in whomever they are watching, following, reading, or listening to.
That is, If one is to ask themselves would this extra kit for smoothing be necessary with just two Bailey planes which are setup to take straight shavings?.

All the gurus have their own reason for the above scenario,
which is either sellin more kit, which won't really get used,
Or to sell more knowledge, which won't happen....
well not in the last decade anyways

 

[Zag73]

Hi again, I figured from your last comment, you only had this in a cart and not followed through yet.
Suppose you made your choice, unless you are a stones throw away from whatever shop you got it, and bought a floor model on such a condition .
I wouldn't expect a business to take such returns of such a premium tool.

Keep it well and it'll likely hold its value.

I’ve not used it or opened the box . So a return is possible. The problem is getting a custom plane here in the UK. Fine Tools in Germany appears to be the only place in Europe that stocks the custom plane.

 

[D_W]

I'm taking a gamble I know exactly why, being not so mobile in last month or two.
Your term "category" could be swapped into a more fitting sentence,
as it does come across as pigeon holing someone.

My reply today, (mainly the section you quoted) sums it up,
which I felt was apt regarding some recent stuff on youtube by one of the most prominent gurus.
Proper daft video worth a laugh, if one can stop curling their toes.

I reckon most of the newcomers should be able to spot the great plane conspiracy
and their advocates from a mile away,
long before they develop too much trust in whomever they are watching, following, reading, or listening to.
That is, If one is to ask themselves would this extra kit for smoothing be necessary with just two Bailey planes which are setup to take straight shavings?.

All the gurus have their own reason for the above scenario,
which is either sellin more kit, which won't really get used,
Or to sell more knowledge, which won't happen....
well not in the last decade anyways

Youtube has really become abysmal. it was disorganized and somewhat humorous sometimes when it was new (anyone remember expertvillage? ), but it also had people who had ten years of knowledge about something shared in 15 minutes. they sort of made a run of videos and told what they knew that was unique and worth sharing and then stopped. Now, we just get people like rex kruger and the wood by wright guy who (at least some of them have commented on my videos in the last half decade before they got footing - I get what they were doing now, they're not looking for knowledge - they're looking for just enough to put up a video and tie it in to revenue links. it's appalling, and it's pretty much universal.

I may be underestimating how skilled some of the other folks are at making it seem like they don't know any better. You can put the gurus in categories. There are the mid level folks who are obsessed with showing beginners their front doors, and they have been beaten at the game in terms of exposure by people with pretty much no skill at all (as mentioned) who spend their spare time trying to arrange someone they can get information out of to use as a topic, or products to promote, revenue links and sites (amazon, banggood) to figure out how to link to. The comments/audience seem very enthusiastic, but they could be well curated by designated moderators. The magic of youtube now makes it difficult to tell if your less than positive comment is seen by others.

 

[D_W]

I’ve not used it or opened the box . So a return is possible. The problem is getting a custom plane here in the UK. Fine Tools in Germany appears to be the only place in Europe that stocks the custom plane.

if you get a custom plane or a clifton or whatever else with a double iron, it's not a bad idea to keep both for a while. The likelihood that you have a BUS and can't get back almost all of your money later is pretty low. Having the two will give you your answer to your needs. If the double iron plane never seems useful and you find other ways to deal with the shortcomings of the BU type, then the need to go beyond just isn't there and chasing it is about as smart as it would be for me to chase a shop full of jigs or euro tools that I wouldn't use. people make fun of me when I say I don't have a mill or better power tools because I don't really see the need, AND, it is not an inconsiderable amount of time and effort to acquire and learn to actually use them properly.

I wasn't snarking earlier when I said that there are a lot of good abrasive solutions for people who just don't want to go far with planes. Some of them are even old (the low speed locomotive belt sanders tension a belt well and are better geared toward bench woodworking than a top handle oriented belt sander made now. And the good half sheet sanders seem miles ahead of a lot of the "it" sanders made now. I could easily get along without using planes if I never knew how to use them).

The two planes together will teach you more than either alone.

 

[Ttrees]

I’ve not used it or opened the box . So a return is possible. The problem is getting a custom plane here in the UK. Fine Tools in Germany appears to be the only place in Europe that stocks the custom plane.

Sorry, can't give advice regarding your options.
I've still got my L-N 60 1/2, which may be similar in ways,
it's basically unused yet, but I'm keeping it for end grain use,
mainly shooting bindings and things teeeny,
or for larger things too awkward for a no.3, but not for smoothing.

Perhaps you won't mind keeping it for something or other.
I suspect it would hold it's value if it turned out you didn't like it.

Tom

 

[thetyreman]

you used to be able to get the veritas custom planes from axminster in the UK, not sure what happend? everything was all looking good, then the pandemic hit and it's not been available.

 

[Ttrees]

I wasn't snarking earlier when I said that there are a lot of good abrasive solutions for people who just don't want to go far with planes.

It's because using a plane is more of a challenge for plane enthusiasts - it's not really about practical woodwork.
But as you shift the cap iron down you are in fact approaching the action of a scraper. They merge into each other!
A scraper is also half way to sand-paper which plane enthusiast rules say must never be used.

Aye, sanding is a solution if it suits, and you're either tooled up with an honest Pentz design type/spec cyclone, or closer to it than the consumer stuff at the upper tier you can buy,
which is say somewhere in-between, and/or wearing powered respirators, or otherwise completely willing to take the gamble.
Same deal with any piece of machinery, unless you can use those outside.
If one can't have such luxuries, then better to have as little dust as necessary if one is going to keep it up.

Being less dusty, quieter, often more accurate, often quicker, less work,
what reason would one have, unless they moved up to a wide belt sander.

 

[Zag73]

you used to be able to get the veritas custom planes from axminster in the UK, not sure what happend? everything was all looking good, then the pandemic hit and it's not been available.

Yes, I remember seeing them there during the pandemic . They also used to stock Lie Nielsen. Only Classictools stock Lie Nielsen in the UK now.

 

[Zag73]

Sorry, can't give advice regarding your options.
I've still got my L-N 60 1/2, which may be similar in ways,
it's basically unused yet, but I'm keeping it for end grain use,
mainly shooting bindings and things teeeny,
or for larger things too awkward for a no.3, but not for smoothing.

Perhaps you won't mind keeping it for something or other.
I suspect it would hold it's value if it turned out you didn't like it.

Tom

I’ll more than likely keep it. Good way to get into planing. I’m sure , eventually, I’ll move over to the bevel downs. But small steps

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

For anyone inclined to do so, look at "Lost Arts Press", the blog by C. Swartz, posted today.

I stand by what I wrote sometime ago, whatever you decide to use, use it and quit listening to the rest of us, at least until you know your plane inside and out. BUS or BD, to one just starting out, particularly if using fairly common hardwoods, will both work.

 

[Ttrees]

I’ll more than likely keep it. Good way to get into planing. I’m sure , eventually, I’ll move over to the bevel downs. But small steps

More reason to get the cap iron working on the no.5 then.
Charlesworth's planing tips regarding stopped shavings and the importance of the edges, paired with advice from those who actually use the cap iron,
will make sure it's not something akin to walking up an escalator which is going down.

 

[D_W]

Perhaps you won't mind keeping it for something or other.
I suspect it would hold it's value if it turned out you didn't like it.

Tom

The way things are going, i'd bet that's true. In the "old days", i'd lost about 10% each on the premium planes I had and later got rid of. There were probably 15 or 20 of them. the last two I sold on regular auctions ended up returning about $100 each in profit, which was unexpected and unwanted.

there's something odd going on with the boutique makers that seems to be above and beyond just "there's more demand" - things like businesses aging (LV and LN have always expanded - sometimes being a frontrunner and dealing with replacing equipment and taking on unexpected costs and time leads to a less than stellar outcome and a clifton like trajectory).

Who knows.

 

[Jacob]

Aye, sanding is a solution if it suits, and you're either tooled up with an honest Pentz design type/spec cyclone, or closer to it than the consumer stuff at the upper tier you can buy,
which is say somewhere in-between, and/or wearing powered respirators, or otherwise completely willing to take the gamble.

Strewth is that what you think? Maybe with MDF but you don't need any of that kit sanding wood, beyond a dust-bag on the machine itself or a connection to a vacuum cleaner - of which there are 100s of makes and brands, quite cheap - less than the price of a dubious, fancy, retro style, smoothing plane!

 

[Jameshow]

For anyone inclined to do so, look at "Lost Arts Press", the blog by C. Swartz, posted today.

I stand by what I wrote sometime ago, whatever you decide to use, use it and quit listening to the rest of us, at least until you know your plane inside and out. BUS or BD, to one just starting out, particularly if using fairly common hardwoods, will both work.

The tool is a tool, what more important is the tool using it!!

 

[Ttrees]

Strewth is that what you think? Maybe with MDF but you don't need any of that kit sanding wood, beyond a dust-bag on the machine itself or a connection to a vacuum cleaner - of which there are 100s of makes and brands, quite cheap - less than the price of a dubious, fancy, retro style, smoothing plane!

For the timbers you've chosen to work with, the suggestion seems to have suited you.
I'm sure like within many occupations, there's plenty haven't had the same outcome
as yourself, take smoking for instance.

 

[Jacob]

For the timbers you've chosen to work with, the suggestion seems to have suited you.
I'm sure like within many occupations, there's plenty haven't had the same outcome
as yourself, take smoking for instance.

There's Iroko of course and one or two others. Face mask and vacuum cleaner connection to hand machines.

 

[D_W]

It's because using a plane is more of a challenge for plane enthusiasts - it's not really about practical woodwork.
But as you shift the cap iron down you are in fact approaching the action of a scraper. They merge into each other!
A scraper is also half way to sand-paper which plane enthusiast rules say must never be used.

this is factually false, but coming from the announcement first that the shavings don't matter, and now declarative things like this, I guess it's not a surprise.

We are fantastically short of any of your demonstrations, and making declarative statements without ever actually showing a how to and an example in real work doesn't leave anyone walking away with anything usable.

Perhaps more interesting is that you deride discussions that have unintentionally landed on methods used when people used hand planes. Not the 1960s when they tried to avoid them, but 150 years earlier when they mattered.

The 1930s to 1980s was probably when they were used with the least skill, but that period yielded a lot of very confident people giving bad information.

 

[Ttrees]

There's Iroko of course and one or two others. Face mask and vacuum cleaner connection to hand machines.

Lots of other reasons for using a hand plane other than smoothing,
which is interconnected with the practically of them, so much the opposite case of that idea you have above.
Having a surface planer/thicknesser simply doesn't suit me yet for many reasons.
I'd sooner get decent extraction and a spindle instead of a machine which doesn't really do anything that I can't easily do already.

Perhaps you can order timber pre-dimensioned from across the road,
or blast through it on the big machines and sand afterwards,
otherwise hand planing from start to finish is a no-brainer for reasons I mentioned earlier, surprised you would be so against the use of such a traditional approach.

 

[Jacob]

Lots of other reasons for using a hand plane other than smoothing,
which is interconnected with the practically of them, so much the opposite case of that idea you have above.
Having a surface planer/thicknesser simply doesn't suit me yet for many reasons.
I'd sooner get decent extraction and a spindle instead of a machine which doesn't really do anything that I can't easily do already.

Perhaps you can order timber pre-dimensioned from across the road,
or blast through it on the big machines and sand afterwards,
otherwise hand planing from start to finish is a no-brainer for reasons I mentioned earlier, surprised you would be so against the use of such a traditional approach.

er - have to say, I think you've totally underestimated the value of a PT. It's about the most labour saving machine of all. I'd guess 20 to 100 times faster than hand planing, for normal sorts of work.
Hand planing is a no brainer if you haven't got a PT of course.
Even with machines a lot of handwork can still be really useful. You can still finish with hand planes - often essential, but a PT takes out the vast bulk of the work.