Smoothing plane

[D_W]

(the guy who got me into woodworking, the same one who will probably get Martin stuff when he's done, generally doesn't plane anything. he's able to get save smoothing out of his bevel down planes now, but he thinks my freehand sharpening and cap iron use are witchcraft - engineer mindset, I sort of get it, the fear of being human without a digital readout on your own body position, but jeez.

I don't make recommendations to him, either. I think he loves the idea of how useful the planes could be, but he would never ever plane an assembled case, and he probably doesn't believe you can make a good case with solids, anyway (engineer thing "it's substandard material. It moves and material that does not is freely available").

too, remember that in 2005 or 2006, people were trying to figure out how to plane difficult woods at all. Curly maple, which planes wonderfully, was described as difficult. of all of the people on the forums with the "i plane all the time" thing back then, I doubt anyone other than warren was actually doing a lot of it.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

What strikes me from that period in hand tooling is I bought everything I could find,

No wonder your wife does not speak to you!

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[raffo]

No wonder your wife does not speak to you!

Regards from Perth

Derek

That's a pretty low and infantile dig.

 

[Jacob]

That's a pretty low and infantile dig.

Is that an example of American "irony deficit"?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2018/dec/16/americans-irony-no-joke-new-york-times-petty-crime

 

[D_W]

No wonder your wife does not speak to you!

Regards from Perth

Derek

I tried the "I don't gamble, drink or chase women. I just try a lot of woodworking tools" thing, but it didn't really work. My father in law is a possessionless saint. I can't meet the standard.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

That's a pretty low and infantile dig.

Nah .. we are old friends ... a friendly tease

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I tried the "I don't gamble, drink or chase women. I just try a lot of woodworking tools" thing, but it didn't really work. My father in law is a possessionless saint. I can't meet the standard.

I have this deal with my wife - I get a tool every time she buys a pair of shoes ............. I wish.

I've been in tool divesting mode for a year or so, but strangely the total just keeps getting larger. It's a mystery.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

I have this deal with my wife - I get a tool every time she buys a pair of shoes ............. I wish.

I've been in tool divesting mode for a year or so, but strangely the total just keeps getting larger. It's a mystery.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I've tried splitting floors. I give up enough of the basement for household storage items, washer and dryer and freezer. The effort to get new territory from upstairs continues like Russia going after crimea and ukraine. But so far, I have managed to fight it off and keep the downstairs "janky". The house came with copper colored carpet in the basement and off white painted walls. What could be better for a guy with metal dust on his shoes than rust colored carpet and an already dirty and dilapidated "men's bathroom".

I don't touch anything upstairs other than the couch with clean clothes and the bed.

watching other people spend retirement unloading tools encourages me to start a slow paced clearing of the ones I don't use, though. that's noted.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I've tried splitting floors. I give up enough of the basement for household storage items, washer and dryer and freezer. The effort to get new territory from upstairs continues like Russia going after crimea and ukraine. But so far, I have managed to fight it off and keep the downstairs "janky". The house came with copper colored carpet in the basement and off white painted walls. What could be better for a guy with metal dust on his shoes than rust colored carpet and an already dirty and dilapidated "men's bathroom".

I don't touch anything upstairs other than the couch with clean clothes and the bed.

watching other people spend retirement unloading tools encourages me to start a slow paced clearing of the ones I don't use, though. that's noted.

David, that's hilarious

I only get hell for tracking in saw dust. I don't make a lot of grey dust.

I guess I have justified the expense on tools by having furnished the house. And now I am starting on my son's home, so there is ever more to do.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Spectric]

Only just read the title as smoothing plane, must have gone word blind as I kept reading it as a soothing plane.

 

[D_W]

Only just read the title as smoothing plane, must have gone word blind as I kept reading it as a soothing plane.

could be soothing until you attempt to talk about one in a hand tools forum. Not sure if they make a porcupine enema plane or sharpening guide.....

 

[IWW]

.....I've been in tool divesting mode for a year or so, but strangely the total just keeps getting larger. It's a mystery......

Been doing the same thing for the last couple of years, ever since I helped an old friend move house - he is/was a pathological hoarder & the experience was scarring! I vowed & declared I was going to reduce my "stuph" to what would easily fit in the back of a small ute.

Lots of things have gone, but new things keep mysteriously appearing - this is a very strange phenomenon we need to get to the bottom of, Derek!

" watching other people spend retirement unloading tools encourages me to start a slow paced clearing of the ones I don't use, though. that's noted...."

Yes, but do try to set the pace so that out-going actually beats incoming....

Cheers,

 

[Zag73]

Given a choice of either the Veritas BUS or the Veritas Custom #4, I would plump for the #4. This does not invalidate the BUS, just that the #4 has a wider range for the experienced.

There is no doubt in my mind that the BUS is a really terrific smoother, and that it is super easy to use and set up …. much more so than the #4. Hone the single blade (I recommend a 25 degree primary bevel and a cambered 50 degree secondary bevel). The resulting 62 degree cutting angle will perform very well on just about all you can throw at it. However … BU high angle smoothers work best with thin shavings, and with the grain. As a finish smoother with reasonably predictably grain direction - even if this is interlocked - the BUS should work well. I think what appeals most to many today is that they set up so easily, and will little fuss. Back when they were my go-to, the reason for choosing them was an economical high angle plane.

The Custom #4 is more complex to set up - along with other similar BD planes with a chipbreaker - in that one needs to know how to set the chipbreaker close to maximise performance. This is not a big deal, but does scare off some. With a closed up chipbreaker, one iis rewarded with a plane which can work in any direction, such as into the grain. This is especially important when planing the intersection of book-matched panels, where the grain direction is opposing.

My Custom #4 has a unique frog, at 42 degrees. This produces a 42 degree cutting angle, which is low … too low to use on interlocked grain without a closed chipbreaker. The advantage of a low cutting angle is that it leaves a smoother finish. Having stated this, in practice, hardwoods do not show this up as readily as softer woods. The finish off a high cutting angle on Jarrah is not readily seen compared to that off a lowish cutting angle.

How important the BD plane is depends on how much you plan to use the chipbreaker. One needs to keep in mind that many - most? - users pre-2012 used their BD planes with common angles (45 degrees) and had the chipbreaker pulled back. How is that different from a BU plane with a common cutting angle (33-35 degree bevel)?

Regards from Perth

Derek

I had toyed with buying the veritas custom plane. What appealed was the ease of adjusting the mouth and range of frogs. On non-exotic woods ,such as ash or oak, is there much benefit to the custom over the BUS?
You’ve said that the BUS is best suited to taking thin shavings. I thought this is what smoothers were intended for. Genuine question, have I missed something?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Zag

Thin shavings are important but the surface of the wood is more so. To get the best surface, one must prevent all tearout. The purpose of a smoother is to finish the surface, and as it is the last plane to touch this, it must do its job as perfectly as possible.

Thin shavings are important for two reasons: firstly, they tell how well a plane is set up. Unless the toe, mouth and heel are coplanar, the blade may dip and cut unevenly. Secondly, sometimes we want to take a fine shaving because that is all that may be needed. I could add a third, which is that fine shavings mitigate against tearout, but there are other, better strategies to use. No one wants to be planing fine shavings all day long.

I have written that a BU plane with a high cutting angle will do the job very well. Plus, a BU plane is lighter and easier to set up than a BD plane. The Custom #4 does have an advantage in tearout control, and it is better suited to taking thicker shavings (because of the chipbreaker) than the BUS. However, as I pointed out, some will not want the learning curve that comes with this. That is okay, as far as I am concerned, as the BUS can do the job perfectly well as long as the wood you are working is not highly interlocked.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Zag73]

Hi Zag

Thin shavings are important but the surface of the wood is more so. To get the best surface, one must prevent all tearout. The purpose of a smoother is to finish the surface, and as it is the last plane to touch this, it must do its job as perfectly as possible.

Thin shavings are important for two reasons: firstly, they tell how well a plane is set up. Unless the toe, mouth and heel are coplanar, the blade may dip and cut unevenly. Secondly, sometimes we want to take a fine shaving because that is all that may be needed. I could add a third, which is that fine shavings mitigate against tearout, but there are other, better strategies to use. No one wants to be planing fine shavings all day long.

I have written that a BU plane with a high cutting angle will do the job very well. Plus, a BU plane is lighter and easier to set up than a BD plane. The Custom #4 does have an advantage in tearout control, and it is better suited to taking thicker shavings (because of the chipbreaker) than the BUS. However, as I pointed out, some will not want the learning curve that comes with this. That is okay, as far as I am concerned, as the BUS can do the job perfectly well as long as the wood you are working is not highly interlocked.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Many thanks for the above. Slightly related (?) , to control tear out, when would you use a plane vs a scraper? I’m guessing the latter is more for localised use?

 

[Ttrees]

Hello, you may suppose I'm simply a premium tool hater,
not so, I've got a LN on my mantle.

Stay away from folks who advice use of such scraping techniques for flat timber,
or you just might buy a load of extra things you don't need,
That could get quite expensive comparing scrapers or comparing low angle planes
with various cutters
(which one who can get straight shavings would never use ever again)

I can't see why you'd want a plane which only specifically shines for the densest and hardest of timbers on planet earth, like in Derek's workshop, which is only for "type 2" shavings at that, i.e very very thin shavings,
when you mentioned common timers you intend to use.

Since you have a ductile iron no.5, then why not use it as a smoother,
(actually using the cap iron)
buy another 20 quid no.4 plane and don't even bother using it, stick it somewhere until you familiarize yourself with "the great plane conspiracy"
.
This no.4 would be used the very minute you realize there is false gurus out there which have various reasons to make you believe the Stanley's are to be avoided.
Serious money to be made, with these folks sticking to their hymn sheets recipes.
being ever so careful to not venture off their customised beaten path (which goes in a circle.)

Have you not got twenty other tools to buy instead?
I like good tools.
I've got Veritas stuff also, but marking gauges and vice screws rather than planes or magic steel, the latter which has been tested here with folks using
the L-N equivalent of Microscopes to compare every alloy or steel on the market.

For your timbers, there is very little to be gained, once again they may be a notable
taking type 2 shavings (i.e 1 or 2 thou) in Jarrah or rosewood,
but not for removing saw or planer marks in regular timbers, which would need more than a single swipe from a smoother to remove.

Once again I must mention I disliked the no.4 until I realised how to use it well,
and likewise I see the no.5 as being like an ice skate,
but I'll bet you would have a new found love for it, should you simply make the choice
to listen to those who have true understanding of how a double iron plane works.

Seems that you might take heed of Derek more so than others,
since his opinion won't come across as biased, having many smoothers to choose from.
Derek won't see you wrong, you will get to see the cap iron actually working...
unless you decide to make up yer own mind instead of what he uses or recommends.

All the best
Tom

 

[Zag73]

Hello, you may suppose I'm simply a premium tool hater,
not so, I've got a LN on my mantle.

Stay away from folks who advice use of such scraping techniques for flat timber,
or you just might buy a load of extra things you don't need,
That could get quite expensive comparing scrapers or comparing low angle planes
with various cutters
(which one who can get straight shavings would never use ever again)

I can't see why you'd want a plane which only specifically shines for the densest and hardest of timbers on planet earth, like in Derek's workshop, which is only for "type 2" shavings at that, i.e very very thin shavings,
when you mentioned common timers you intend to use.

Since you have a ductile iron no.5, then why not use it as a smoother,
(actually using the cap iron)
buy another 20 quid no.4 plane and don't even bother using it, stick it somewhere until you familiarize yourself with "the great plane conspiracy"
.
This no.4 would be used the very minute you realize there is false gurus out there which have various reasons to make you believe the Stanley's are to be avoided.
Serious money to be made, with these folks sticking to their hymn sheets recipes.
being ever so careful to not venture off their customised beaten path (which goes in a circle.)

Have you not got twenty other tools to buy instead?
I like good tools.
I've got Veritas stuff also, but marking gauges and vice screws rather than planes or magic steel, the latter which has been tested here with folks using
the L-N equivalent of Microscopes to compare every alloy or steel on the market.

For your timbers, there is very little to be gained, once again they may be a notable
taking type 2 shavings (i.e 1 or 2 thou) in Jarrah or rosewood,
but not for removing saw or planer marks in regular timbers, which would need more than a single swipe from a smoother to remove.

Once again I must mention I disliked the no.4 until I realised how to use it well,
and likewise I see the no.5 as being like an ice skate,
but I'll bet you would have a new found love for it, should you simply make the choice
to listen to those who have true understanding of how a double iron plane works.

Seems that you might take heed of Derek more so than others,
since his opinion won't come across as biased, having many smoothers to choose from.
Derek won't see you wrong, you will get to see the cap iron actually working...
unless you decide to make up yer own mind instead of what he uses or recommends.

All the best
Tom

Hi Tom

I may yet send the bevel up smoother back and get the veritas custom 4. It’s mouth adjuster takes one complication out of the equation - hate the idea of moving the frog forward to adjust the mouth.

 

[Ttrees]

Hi again, I figured from your last comment, you only had this in a cart and not followed through yet.
Suppose you made your choice, unless you are a stones throw away from whatever shop you got it, and bought a floor model on such a condition .
I wouldn't expect a business to take such returns of such a premium tool.

Keep it well and it'll likely hold its value.

 

[D_W]

This no.4 would be used the very minute you realize there is false gurus out there which have various reasons to make you believe the Stanley's are to be avoided.
Serious money to be made, with these folks sticking to their hymn sheets recipes.
being ever so careful to not venture off their customised beaten path (which goes in a circle.)

Some of that is true, but there are other causes. One of the biggest holes in gurudom is that the gurus are more interested in being gurus than they really are about learning anything. I have little to show for teaching people anything, but I am wired opposite. The question of "what else is there" never goes away - observation at a different level of tedium is joy.

I spent part of this morning listening to a hedge fund manager basically tell people (for an hour) whey they should not be traders or seek trading courses in the open market, especially if they know little about it. The bulk of financial advice given to people in the US (the volume) doesn't go to the largest volume of investors, it goes to suckers. the people doing actual investment at a mechanical level (fund managers) are busy doing it.

We primarily get information in woodworking from people who can't do it professionally and make income or do fine work. So the advice is bad, incomplete and some good information is woven in. Each of us could look deeper and probably learn a couple of things that we could share and provide.

15 years ago, we had some balance (it was out of balance) of buyers, enablers and gurus that were countered by folks like Don McConnell, who would magically pop up when you had a difficult question about a prior maker or something obscure. But that is generally lost now. I think it's lost because when someone like Don comes to the forums, there isn't really anyone who wants information that he has.

On the forums, we can't really tell who is in which category above when they're asking questions and people are shy about stating their intent. when I was new, I also went to the forums after I looked around a little bit, posting a question and really wanting confirmation of what I'd found and enjoying the discussion. If someone like me came along at that time and gave a bunch of long answers like I did here, I would probably have said that I'd stuff them off in something for a while until i had context, but on a bad day, I'd have told them to F.O.

 

[Jacob]

Many thanks for the above. Slightly related (?) , to control tear out, when would you use a plane vs a scraper? I’m guessing the latter is more for localised use?

It's because using a plane is more of a challenge for plane enthusiasts - it's not really about practical woodwork.
But as you shift the cap iron down you are in fact approaching the action of a scraper. They merge into each other!
A scraper is also half way to sand-paper which plane enthusiast rules say must never be used.