Smoking

[Vulcan]

Back in the day if an environment was very smoky you had the option to walk out to breathe in clean air.
No such luck with exhaust fumes.

I read recently, that although thankfully in decline, over 80,000 Diesel cars have been sold in the UK this year.
Do buyers of these cars really not know the exhaust from these cars are worse than cheaper petrol alternatives and cause Heart Disease, Lung Disease, Dementia and has now been linked to Parkinson’s Disease. Or do they just not care?
I just wondered.

 

[Dabop]

Modern diesels exhaust is actually 'cleaner' than the air it pulls in in many cities...

In many places petrol motors are banned in forklifts used inside warehouses, where diesel or LPG is allowed...
But BEV's are far cleaner than either diesels OR petrols...

 

[Ollie78]

Back in the day if an environment was very smoky you had the option to walk out to breathe in clean air.
No such luck with exhaust fumes.

I read recently, that although thankfully in decline, over 80,000 Diesel cars have been sold in the UK this year.
Do buyers of these cars really not know the exhaust from these cars are worse than cheaper petrol alternatives and cause Heart Disease, Lung Disease, Dementia and has now been linked to Parkinson’s Disease. Or do they just not care?
I just wondered.

It is not a question of "not caring" but what am I supposed to do, I need a large van to do my work, my van is diesel as are most large vans, this is because a turbo diesel engine has high torque and fairly decent fuel efficiency. I do not have enough money to buy a new vehicle and even if I could it would still probably have to be a diesel.
To replace mine with a new diesel the same is about £30K and will do 700 miles on a tank the same one but electric is £60k and will go 120 miles per charge.
Also what about the environmental impact of producing the new vehicle in the first place, raw materials transported around the world, then components and finished vehicles transported around the world moslty by large diesel ships.
I contend that keeping my old van going for as long as possible is actually better than buying a new one every 3 years.

It is not that people don`t care it is just that we have no choice, I can`t do carpentry and joinery work using a pushbike.

Also depending on how far "back in the day" you go you could scarcely avoid the smog outside either, I think overall we are improving.

 

[Kittyhawk]

Diesels are a bit smelly and do puff a bit of smoke sometimes.
But there is a large body of peer reviewed research which states conclusively that in spite of smoke and smell diesels emit less environmental pollutants and are less damaging to one's health than petrol engines and especially so for diesels with EGR valves and catalytic converters. I wish all the finger-pointing greenie politicians would look at the science for once and stop their endless bleating about 'deadly diesels.'

 

[artie]

I wish all the finger-pointing greenie politicians would look at the science for once and.....

Rolling on the floor laughing hysterically.

 

[Spectric]

That could be said of the original diesels that lasted forever but now with the modern diesel using electronic engine management with a Diesel Particulate Filter they are very clean in comparison. In theory a big electric motor can deliver the torque required by vehicles that currently need a diesel engine, this is clearly demonstrated by many trains but they have a good supply of power delivered by the overheads at 25,000 volts. With batteries it is a different equation and not so easily solved because of the power to weight ratio and you don't want your forty ton artic having to carry five tons of batteries just to propel itself.

To replace mine with a new diesel the same is about £30K and will do 700 miles on a tank the same one but electric is £60k and will go 120 miles per charge.

You probably already have a towbar and trailer so could invest in a diesel generator to keep it charged whilst on the move and then also have a power source on site .

To get some idea of power consumption just think how quickly a car battery goes flat when just cranking an engine that does not start, ok that is just a 12 volt system but moving a vehicle with a 400 volt system still consumes a lot of power and there is a lot of calorific energy in a gallon of diesel compared to a similiar sized battery.

 

[artie]

You probably already have a towbar and trailer so could invest in a diesel generator to keep it charged whilst on the move and then also have a power source on site .

Maybe you're being humorous but again maybe not.

 

[Spectric]

Maybe you're being humorous but again maybe not.

I saw this on some channel from America, I think it was about getting a cheaper truck but retaining the mileage ability.

 

[artie]

I saw this on some channel from America, I think it was about getting a cheaper truck but retaining the mileage ability.

Did they really suggest selling a $30,000 truck, replace it with a $60,000 electric truck, then buy a diesel generator to put on a trailer to drive it?

My mind is well and truly boggled.

 

[Chubber]

There's a hole in Africa somewhere as big as the Isle of Wight already from which materials are sourced to make E.V. batteries...Don't worry, there's plenty of space in Africa and the natives hold their breath when the lorries go by to avoid breathing in the fumes.

 

[Jacob]

Diesels are a bit smelly and do puff a bit of smoke sometimes.
But there is a large body of peer reviewed research which states conclusively that in spite of smoke and smell diesels emit less environmental pollutants and are less damaging to one's health than petrol engines and especially so for diesels with EGR valves and catalytic converters.

Not true. The science is well established. Do you have links to your story?
SCR, EGR valves and catalytic converters have some effect but not enough.
https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/petrol-diesel-cars-vans-2030-ban-phase-out/
https://friendsoftheearth.uk/climate/diesel-and-air-pollution-10-facts-about-invisible-killer
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/scr-egr-and-catalytic-converters-what-are-they

 

[Dabop]

Maybe you're being humorous but again maybe not.

Actually, there are already 'range booster' trailers commercially available- either extra batteries, or a small diesel generator that either extend your EV's range, or turn it into a 'semi hybrid' for extended trips...

Best of both worlds- EV without lugging around a next to useless ICE motor that decreases your mileage for 99% of most peoples driving- and extends it for long trips (like holidays etc) with some companies starting up 'holiday rentals'- no need to buy, just rent when needed...

 

[Dabop]

There's a hole in Africa somewhere as big as the Isle of Wight already from which materials are sourced to make E.V. batteries...Don't worry, there's plenty of space in Africa and the natives hold their breath when the lorries go by to avoid breathing in the fumes.

Currently Australia is one of the biggest suppliers of lithium used in EV batteries (the often trotted out by antiEVer's 'kids mine cobalt in Africa' nonsense is just that- cobalt use is practically zero these days, and has been for almost half a decade, with many EV batteries containing none at all...)- but that never stops the antiEV crowd trotting it out on a regular basis...

Note that almost all current EVs are switching to, or already use LFP lithium cells, rather than the other types such as NCA or NMC- they have a slightly lesser range for the same size/weight, but offer far more lifecycles (basically double the number of charges before they start to show some degradation) and don't have to do that stupid 'keep it at 80%/less than full charge' nonsense...

All BYD vehicles (as well as most other Chinese and EU made vehicles) use LFP, as do the Chinese or EU made Tesla Model 3's (only the US made version uses the less desirable NMC cells, as do the other Tesla models..)
In fact, Tesla uses BYD made 'blade cells' for the Chinese and EU made Model 3's!!!

Another major factor for using LFP over the other lithium chemistries is that they are far more thermally stable (ie they don't do the 'burny flamey' thing easily)...

https://www.whichcar.com.au/advice/ev-battery-types-explained-electric-car-pros-cons

 

[NickDReed]

Currently Australia is one of the biggest suppliers of lithium used in EV batteries (the often trotted out by antiEVer's 'kids mine cobalt in Africa' nonsense is just that- cobalt use is practically zero these days, and has been for almost half a decade

False and misleading -

In 2022, lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) remained the dominant battery chemistry with a market share of 60%, followed by lithium iron phosphate (LFP) with a share of just under 30%, and nickel cobalt aluminium oxide (NCA) with a share of about 8%.

https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2023/trends-in-batteries

Note that almost all current EVs are switching to, or already use LFP lithium cells, rather than the other types such as NCA or NMC- they have a slightly lesser range for the same size/weight, but offer far more lifecycles (basically double the number of charges before they start to show some degradation) and don't have to do that stupid 'keep it at 80%/less than full charge' nonsense...

Also false and misleading,

In 2022, LFP batteries accounted for 34% of the global EV battery market, with a projected increase to 39% by 2024.

While EV producers are using LFPs they are largely not solely using them as a replacement for cobalt based chemistries, but offering them as an (cheaper) option on their ranges. A key problem with LFPs for use in EVs currently is their energy density which is inferior to cobalt chemistries as is their efficacy in colder climates.

(the often trotted out by antiEVer's 'kids mine cobalt in Africa' nonsense is just that- cobalt use is practically zero these days, and has been for almost half a decade, with many EV batteries containing none at all...)- but that never stops the antiEV crowd trotting it out on a regular basis...

I have to take issue with your above statement which is at best disingenuous, and at worst an outright lie designed to minimise the truth of a humanitarian disaster that continues to this day. This allows 'developed' countries and their population to feel good about being 'environmentally minded' while ignoring that it comes at great human suffering in Africa. It is grotesque.

 

[Agent_zed]

Back in the day if an environment was very smoky you had the option to walk out to breathe in clean air.
No such luck with exhaust fumes.

I read recently, that although thankfully in decline, over 80,000 Diesel cars have been sold in the UK this year.
Do buyers of these cars really not know the exhaust from these cars are worse than cheaper petrol alternatives and cause Heart Disease, Lung Disease, Dementia and has now been linked to Parkinson’s Disease. Or do they just not care?
I just wondered.

Well as around 50% of particulates are brake and tyre dust it could be argued that anyone with a car clearly doesn't care, especially those with a bigger car that has bigger tyres/brakes.

Also nlooking at Euro 5 standards which my car is, it would appear that petrol and diesel cars can emit the same amount of particulate matter. Sure there are higher emissions of NOx allowed for diesel but this is also Euro 5. Euro 6 is basically the same for petrol/diesel, but less CO2 for diesel in both categories. My car is a 2012 euro 5 so most cars are going to be within Euro 5 now and probably Euro 6 which came in in 2014 (10 years ago!).

Euro 5 emissions standards (petrol)​

CO: 1.0g/km
THC: 0.10g/km
NMHC: 0.068g/km
NOx: 0.06g/km
PM: 0.005g/km (direct injection only)

Euro 5 emissions standards (diesel)​

CO: 0.50g/km
HC + NOx: 0.23g/km
NOx: 0.18g/km
PM: 0.005g/km
PN [#/km]: 6.0x10 ^11/km

Euro 6 emissions standards (petrol)​

CO: 1.0g/km
THC: 0.10g/km
NMHC: 0.068g/km
NOx: 0.06g/km
PM: 0.005g/km (direct injection only)
PN [#/km]: 6.0x10 ^11/km (direct injection only)

Euro 6 emissions standards (diesel)​

CO: 0.50g/km
HC + NOx: 0.17g/km
NOx: 0.08g/km
PM: 0.005g/km
PN [#/km]: 6.0x10 ^11/km

 

[Dabop]

False and misleading -

In 2022, lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) remained the dominant battery chemistry with a market share of 60%, followed by lithium iron phosphate (LFP) with a share of just under 30%, and nickel cobalt aluminium oxide (NCA) with a share of about 8%.

https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2023/trends-in-batteries



Also false and misleading,

In 2022, LFP batteries accounted for 34% of the global EV battery market, with a projected increase to 39% by 2024.

While EV producers are using LFPs they are largely not solely using them as a replacement for cobalt based chemistries, but offering them as an (cheaper) option on their ranges. A key problem with LFPs for use in EVs currently is their energy density which is inferior to cobalt chemistries as is their efficacy in colder climates.



I have to take issue with your above statement which is at best disingenuous, and at worst an outright lie designed to minimise the truth of a humanitarian disaster that continues to this day. This allows 'developed' countries and their population feel good about being 'environmentally minded' while ignoring that comes at great human suffering in Africa. It is grotesque.

And with that- you are muted- if you can't be civil-- then I have no desire to have any further dealings with someone who is both abusive and incorrect...

 

[NickDReed]

Presumably what is considered civil would be nothing short of agreement with another's views?

The bar for what is considered abuse must have become extraordinarily low! Being presented with information that is contrary to that which another provided is now abusive. That's new.

 

[Spectric]

Lets all remain civil and respect others views please.

When I think of Cobalt I think of it's use in alloys of steel for cutting tools, but it was used in batteries for electrodes which I now believe are moving to Silicon electrodes. Also is battery technology not moving away from NCM to Lithium Iron Phosphate ? Also what is the technology behind that new Chinese battery ? When thinking of mineral deposits in Africa are the Chinese not heavily involved because they have built up a trading relationship with many countries there whilst we just make adversaries of countries like China.

 

[Dabop]

The majority of EVs built outside the US these days use LFP cells (thats Lithium Iron Phosphate ie LiFePO4)- at this point the only ones still using NCM outside the US are Tesla,and even then, only in their 'supercar' vehicles, the base models like the Model 3 use LFP... (they have a lower energy density, but still a very usable range (the Atto 3 I am looking at is 400km real life range between charges, with a less than half hour recharge time from 20% to 80%- that last 20% takes as long as the previous 60%!!!) and their cost is far less than NCM (which is why a top of the line Tesla costs so much, and a BYD... doesn't...)

lfp-vs-ncm-batteries

Which cars have LFP battery packs?


From 2021...

https://evreporter.com/evolution-of-the-battery-materials/

 

[NickDReed]

The majority of EVs built outside the US these days use LFP cells (thats Lithium Iron Phosphate ie LiFePO4)

Apologies if this post is considered abusive.

In China, LFP batteries dominate, accounting for approximately 70% of EV battery deployments. In contrast, LFP's share in Europe and North America remains modest, at 8% and 9% respectively.

https://rhomotion.com/news/lfp-battery-recycling-the-challenges-and-opportunities-industry-update/

Evident that at 70%, China are using LFP tech in the majority of their EVs, but this is significantly different to the initial assertion that -

cobalt use is practically zero these days, and has been for almost half a decade

at this point the only ones still using NCM outside the US are Tesla

Are Tesla the only manufacturer outside of the US using NCM tech?

The BMW i4 and iX3, produced in Germany and China respectively, are equipped with NCM batteries.
The Volkswagen ID.4, manufactured in Germany, uses NCM batteries.
The Hyundai Ioniq 5, produced in South Korea, is powered by NCM batteries.
The Kia EV6, also produced in South Korea, NCM batteries.

Clearly they are.

In the mean time, African men, women and children may still be digging cobalt for dollar(s?) a day with no thought for their health or safety, or their homes or the environment in their country from those higher up the supply chain who profit from their suffering.

Or, I might just be part of the 'antiEV crowd' spreading lies and misinformation.

Appreciate I'm on the ignore list, but maybe some others on here might like some balance to the conversation.