SIP stockists / table saw advice

[Steve Maskery]

I like that,

Thank you, so do I. You see, I'm not just indescribably handsome.
S

 

[Mark A]

Fantastic jig Steve! I've been using the ruler stops linked above since I got my saw but I'll definitely be making something like you jig in the future. Perhaps also a pair of larger ones which use metre rules for wider cuts?

Mark

 

[Steve Maskery]

The longer one uses a self-adhesive tape measure and references off the back edge. Full details are on Workshop Essentials Volume 1.
Cheers
Steve

 

[wcndave]

For what it's worth.

I have a scheppach TS2010 which has sliding carriage and should handle panels. the sliding mitre gauge extends to 2m.

I have started working with panels more recently, and after about 2 attempts, I changed to using my very cheap £20 circular saw and a simple clamp T-track i got cheap to size panels.

It is just so much easier. I have about 40 square meters in my shop, and don't think i could get anything bigger in there!

I have some friends who work in professional furniture companies and you need something bigger than your shop to really make it work well on panels.

So i agree with some of the others, and say get a CC and track (even a cheap one) and then get a really good quality smaller table saw.

 

[siggy_7]

Thanks for all your advice guys. An update - there is now potential for extension of the workshop to about 20'x20' which would make some of the larger machines much more usable. I've been doing some reading up on the Record TS250RS (a similar TS250SB also seems to be in existence which looks near identical apart from a smaller sliding table) and I'm quite tempted by one of these with a sliding beam and squaring table. I've found out that a local company to my work (Tewkesbury Saw Company, anyone hear of them or have any experience to share?) has a Record show next Friday/Saturday so I'm planning to go along and see what it's like in the metal (they also stock the Jet JTS-600 which I was originally looking at so hoping to get a good feel for how they match up). Ideally I'd like the Record TS315 with the scoring blade and bigger capacities but I can't justify doubling the outlay for the difference.

As an alternative, I did consider a DIY vertical panel saw set-up (I really like the look of the Shopnotes issue 88 "Ultimate Shop Built Panel Saw") but like the Festool this wouldn't be a tablesaw replacement so I'm not convinced that it's worth the not insignificant effort and outlay.

 

[OPJ]

The blade is more important than the power I think. To a certain extent.

I quite agree. My little, aluminium Elektra Beckum PK200 saw has an output of less than 1HP, I think (well, it's certainly no more than that) and it will quite comfortably rip 2in hardwoods (I've tried ash and beech) with the right blade. When ripping thicker stuff on any saw, it's important to have a blade with a low number of teeth - I think my 210mm Freud blade has only 16t. Combination or multi-purpose blades will have around 40t; designed to allow you to tackle all jobs (ripping and cross-cutting both solid timber and sheet materials) but, I've never liked ripping real wood on any saw with a blade of such a high tooth count. Even 1in stuff. :?

 

[siggy_7]

Ok, so my impatience got the better of me and I popped up to Tewkesbury Saw in my lunch hour. They had a Jet on display, I had a look round the machine and it seems quite well put together and very compact once the outrigger table is folded away. However, the sliding table stroke only appears to be about 900mm (I didn't have a measure to hand) and I'm not convinced it's the saw for me as it just seems too small in capacity.

They also had a Record TS315 sat next to it, with a squaring table and rip extension. The thing is massive! I can see why others have been trying to dissuade me from getting something too big for my small shop. However, the TS250 (which they didn't have around) is a smaller machine and I could get by with the standard 610mm rip capacity until I have the space, which makes it nice and compact when the squaring table and outrigger are removed - smaller in fact than most other small saws with their less removable extension tables up to make their capacities bigger. This seems like quite a straightforward operation. Next step is to find a TS250 to look at in the metal, none of the local Record stockists seem to have them. I've only found Lawson in Southampton or DM Tools in Middlesex that list them on their websites.

 

[wcndave]

DM has them on sale, where you get the extension, squaring and the saw for £1,100
The AW10BSB2 is also on sale as a package deal at Ax, and comes in about the same specs, for £970.

The AW has a sliding table travel of 1220mm which seemed important to you.

I cannot speak for the quality of either, however, from all i have read on the forums, i think you will find that the Ax offers great customer support, you will find lots of tips and advice on the forum from other users, and is slightly cheaper.

DM are very nice, however you will really be relying on talking to Record directly for any issues, and I have not heard much that's positive about that...

My instinct is that you can't go wrong with the Ax, and although I have a supposedly superior brand Scheppach, I would almost certainly go for the 10" Ax, or it's 12" big brother if i had to do it again...

just my tuppence!

 

[siggy_7]

Today I had a very useful trip to Yandles. It turns out that they do have a Record TS250RS on display in their shop, but it's not currently listed as a stocked product on their website. I had a good look around it and really like what I saw. The sliding table is about 1300mm long, locks positively on the under-side of the carriage when required, has a mitre slot and a 1225mm stroke, and feels very smooth in action including with the outrigger and squaring frame attached. A small piece of metal fixed to the underside of the fence gives support when cutting very wide material. The squaring table comes off with two bolts with handles on to make removal tool-less, literally a minute's work to attach or remove. The crosscut fence is just over 1200mm retracted, and telescopes out a long way further. The attachment to the squaring table is via a pin which runs in a track on the underside of the fence, and is secured in place via an allen key bolt. A second clamping mechanism sets the angle of the fence. The rip fence adjusts for width along the front rail and locks positively by turning a wheel; a micro adjuster is also provided which worked well. The fence can also be adjusted lengthwise to give support for ripping and cross-cutting as required whilst minimising the risk of kick-back by removing lateral force past the blade when appropriately set up. With the squaring table off and the standard right-hand extension, the dimensions are 900mm wide x 1350mm long, so nice and compact for my small shop. The squaring table adds 600mm of width; the cross-cut fence about a further 350mm.

All in all I think it has good capacity, seems well put together and should handle the work I want to do with it easily. I reckon it should handle sheets nicely with a hold-down clamp on the cross-cut fence (which I don't think is included) and some extra support via a couple of roller stands. The TS315 that was sat next to it has basically the same capacities bar the wider rip fence and bigger motor/blade, and whilst the fences on that model do seem another step up in solidity and quality I don't think for my purposes I'll be able to jusitfy the extra £900. Plus it's an extra 300mm wider because of the wider rip fence capacities. The TS250RS is definitely my front-runner.

I'm going to Axminster next Saturday afternoon to check out the remaining contenders (TS200 and AW10BSB2). If I go down this road I think I will end up having to get a guided rail system for handling sheets and things too big to get on the table. I notice that a new rail system from Woodstar (the Divar 55) is now available for pre-order from Yandles at £180, which includes a 55mm plunge-saw and 1.4m rail. Sadly they didn't have one on display to check out today. At less than half the price of most of its competitors it's well worth considering; does anyone else know much about this new product?

 

[wcndave]

Woodstar is made by scheppach however is done in china I think, so sort of their "cheap arm". I have a couple of wood star products that are ok, however only where I didn't want to spend much, so cheap and cheerful. Certainly not as good as Mafell or Festool, however for hobby work generally good value. If you're in for the long haul you might upgrade, as I will, however I don't regret buying twice as I would never have paid the premium prices when I started.

That particular tool I am not sure, this is just my take on woodstar.

 

[siggy_7]

I had a fairly useful trip to Axminster this afternoon, managed to have a look around quite a bit of kit. Unfortunately they didn't have an AW10BSB2 to look at; the sales guys there showed me an MJ12-1600 panel saw which was claimed to be "similar" although I'm not convinced about that, they seem pretty unrelated to me! However, the visit uncovered several useful bits of information:

1. The Axminster panel saw was not much more than the Record TS250RS with accessories, but has much bigger capacities including a 12" blade, scoring blade unit, more powerful motor and seems much more substantially built. It's also cheaper than the Record TS315 by a fair whack, despite having a larger table and more travel
2. Based on the above, I've been put off buying the Record as it seems "built down to a price" by comparison, but doesn't seem to be that cheap relative to what else is available
3. The aforementioned Axminster is much, much too large for my current workshop
4. The TS-200 seems very well made and pretty sturdy, and in combination with a guided rail saw should manage pretty much any project that I have in the pipeline (most of what I want to do is cabinet making)
5. I also had a look at some sliding compound mitre saws, and again I think I can picture how one of these in combination with a guided rail saw would make a good package for my cabinet making

I think I've therefore concluded that the best solution for me currently is to get a guided rail saw (probably the Woodstar Divar 55) and either a SCMS (was looking at the Axminster AW10SMS) or a TS-200 for smaller cross-cutting and angled cutting duties. The SCMS route is potentially cheaper and a little more portable; however I'm a bit concerned about the relative accuracy of the SCMS compared with a table saw for making furniture accurately as it seems more like a site tool to me. When I can really up my budget a bit and have a decent 20'x20'+ workshop, I'll consider getting something more like a decently made compact panel saw, and sleep easy that I've bought a well made and capable machine that I won't secretly be disappointed with every time I see something bigger or more professional. In the meantime though, should I go SCMS or the TS-200?

 

[wcndave]

I would go for the TS, i find i use it often, even though mine is fairly small, whereas my scms hardly gets a look in bar doing some odd 45 deg mouldings. I am sure others use their scms far more, however I agree with the wood whisperer that the table saw is the heart of the workshop.

FWIW

 

[siggy_7]

Thanks for your advice wcndave, I think I've arrived at the same conclusion. Now for a new thread on TS-200 modifications!