Apologies if posted already but in case you havent seen this..... Thomas Flynn Saws in Sheffield The presenter is rather perky but the process is wonderful to follow. I really enjpoyed it.
Sheffield Saw Making - youtube
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niall Y
Established Member
I think @deema may have posted this a couple of days ago. It is interesting, though the presenter was relentlessly "Tiggerlike". There is another video of the factory, on YouTube snowing the process of making a saw. It was a lot more along the lines of "How It's Made". In fact it could well be an episode of that show, 
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/thomas-flynn-saw-making.149378/
This is not a good advert for British industry.
Their workshop is a tip. It looks like a shoestring operation that has seen little investment and is is bleeding the last dregs of life out of machines that were innovative and well made a century ago.
I'd love to see the (probably nonexistant) business continuity plan.
This is not a good advert for British industry.
Their workshop is a tip. It looks like a shoestring operation that has seen little investment and is is bleeding the last dregs of life out of machines that were innovative and well made a century ago.
I'd love to see the (probably nonexistant) business continuity plan.
Ollie78
Established Member
It did make me want a nice shiny saw, but I do agree with Sideways about the general scruffyness of the operation. I guess if it works then why change it but its a bit too much like my messy tip of a workshop.....
The one where he went to the scissor manufacturer was interesting as well.
The one where he went to the scissor manufacturer was interesting as well.
Much more like it.
Ernest Wright is a real success story. A business that was near it's end as the few remaining skilled craftsmen neared retirement was rescued, young employees taken on and traditional skills preserved.
It has similarly old premises but you can instantly see that the place is cared for.
Ernest Wright is a real success story. A business that was near it's end as the few remaining skilled craftsmen neared retirement was rescued, young employees taken on and traditional skills preserved.
It has similarly old premises but you can instantly see that the place is cared for.
I've one of the T.Flynn small jewellers saws which are pretty cheap at under £30.
Zero set, got it for doing small dovetails, because the zero set follows a cut/scribed line better, and meant i didnt need to refine the cut with a chisel
Zero set, got it for doing small dovetails, because the zero set follows a cut/scribed line better, and meant i didnt need to refine the cut with a chisel
I have a couple of saws from those makers and while the saws are fine the handles were very poorly shaped so I ended up refining them myself to suit. I remember reading a magazine article about them years ago, perhaps in "Good Woodworking", where they gave a pictorial factory tour with an explanation of the process. The owner showed how the handles were cut and explained that the (rather crude) profiles were as they were because "we are saw makers not handle makers!"- a strange admission I thought at the time!
So: they can successfully do what their ancesters in Sheffield did 250 years ago . . . . That's progress!
Against_The_Grain
Established Member
It’s a true enough statement, generally years ago they were two separate trades working exclusively in metal or wood entirely operating in different businesses. In Sheffield there were saw makers who made handsaws, and also bandsaws and circular saws generally, and saw handle makers who supplied the saw makers with the handles for their saws, only the bigger operations like Spear and Jackson had their own handle production plant.
"only …… Spear and Jackson had their own handle production plant." ? Yes, and look what a mess they made of it! Modern "post-reDesign" S&J totes are instantly recognisable –– and condemn a saw to instant valuelessness.
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So you'd like them to invest in new, foreign-made CNC- machinery, and remove their USP, Traditionally Made Hand Tools, to become another struggling tool manufacturer awaiting takeover by DeWalt.
Everybody’s hands are different sizes and what feels a nice handle to one is an awful to another. Traditionally your bought a saw and then ‘dressed’ the handle to fit your hand before soaking it in linseed oil. A finest finish of a handle would have been pointless. Now, the aesthetics of the horn styling, pistol or full handle is a matter of personal choice, I suspect when a man used a saw 8 hours a day, a saw handle that fitted his hand was more important than aesthetics, however I also do accept a saw would cost more than a weeks wages would make choosing a saw a more selective process than today!
@Limey Lurker , the point @Sideways is making that not only is the cleanliness / chaotic layout of the factory / flow of work to be polite rather primitive, but the machines they are using are in a terrible state. The machines are obsolete, as the chap says, with no spares and ‘bodged’. I can honestly say having run many manufacturing factories the machines ways of working don’t meet safety requirements and should not be operated as they are in my opinion dangerous ie lacking proper guarding and emergency switches as two examples.
I would say that I’m fairly good at saw sharpening and have a detailed knowledge of how it’s done. I can say that I was astonished to see a set and sharpened saw literally being ‘bashed’ into the hard back. Now it could be for the film that the order of work was changed, but most people would recognise that pressing the saw blade into the hard back and then a final hand sharpen would be vast improvement and produce a better product.
@Limey Lurker , the point @Sideways is making that not only is the cleanliness / chaotic layout of the factory / flow of work to be polite rather primitive, but the machines they are using are in a terrible state. The machines are obsolete, as the chap says, with no spares and ‘bodged’. I can honestly say having run many manufacturing factories the machines ways of working don’t meet safety requirements and should not be operated as they are in my opinion dangerous ie lacking proper guarding and emergency switches as two examples.
I would say that I’m fairly good at saw sharpening and have a detailed knowledge of how it’s done. I can say that I was astonished to see a set and sharpened saw literally being ‘bashed’ into the hard back. Now it could be for the film that the order of work was changed, but most people would recognise that pressing the saw blade into the hard back and then a final hand sharpen would be vast improvement and produce a better product.
Stanley Black & Decker have ruined every company they bought by cost reducing everything while milking the customer goodwill towards the brands they acquire. I despise them more than you do.
What I'd like to see is a company that claims to make some of the finest handmade saws, stepping up and working out how to do it better, safer, sustainably, with continuing improvement in quality and growing their reputation and exports.
If you want to build a world class company, you need a management and staff that set themselves high standards. That's not what I saw in that video.
And why do you assume the answer to everything is CNC machinery ?
The comment about handles is telling. What's the first thing about a saw that conveys quality ? It's the look, feel and finish of the handle where the user connects with it. Even if the teeth aren't perfectly set or made from the best quality steel, the user will notice an uncomfortable or un-ergonomic grip before anything else.
Quangsheng / Luban understand that. Even the factory that makes Axminster's Rider planes understand that. Are there folk at Thomas Flynn who don't ?
niall Y
Established Member
I think one has to place the Flinn/Garlick workshop in context. In the past a lot of these workshops were interdependent. and not everything was tackled in -house , as it would be in a factory. With the closing of tool works in Sheffield this has had to change, with things that were separate trades now being incorporated, in-house . However, it was interesting to note that Scissor Makers, featured in the other video, still have their heat treatment done elsewhere.
.Flinn/Garlick, seems to be very much the "last man standing" as far as saw- making goes. Having worked many years ago for a firm that still printed etchings and engravings, which could also fit into this category, I am very much aware that this is probably the end of an era. Based on the batch numbers they were quoting, the market simply isn't there anymore. A few specialists, and a few dwindling hobbyists, isn't going to keep them afloat.
I am one of those customers who simply stopped buying these old-style saws. During my whole working career, I have only ever purchased hardpoint saws, or their Japanese equivalents with the disposable blades. From a business point of view, Spear and Jackson had the right idea when they switched to modern disposable saws. Having started out with one of their old, crosscut saws, and a Pax rip-saw in my kit, I now mainly use saws from their Predator range.
.Flinn/Garlick, seems to be very much the "last man standing" as far as saw- making goes. Having worked many years ago for a firm that still printed etchings and engravings, which could also fit into this category, I am very much aware that this is probably the end of an era. Based on the batch numbers they were quoting, the market simply isn't there anymore. A few specialists, and a few dwindling hobbyists, isn't going to keep them afloat.
I am one of those customers who simply stopped buying these old-style saws. During my whole working career, I have only ever purchased hardpoint saws, or their Japanese equivalents with the disposable blades. From a business point of view, Spear and Jackson had the right idea when they switched to modern disposable saws. Having started out with one of their old, crosscut saws, and a Pax rip-saw in my kit, I now mainly use saws from their Predator range.
This is symptomatic of the reasons for the collapse of the Sheffield saw industry. Persisting with individual craft skills, in a business that was rapidly industrialising, Long before fleam-hardened teeth [i.e. from 1890 on], the Sheffield industry was on its knees, facing overwhelming competition both on price and quality, from the US. Principally, from Henry Disston and Elias Atkins. Both of them Sheffield-raised and trained men, who left for the US because the home industry was increasingly stick-in-the-mud.
The classic example: Grinders. They were the kings of Sheffield sawsmithing, spending the days hanging horizontally - suspended by a belly-band - over a spinning local gritstone wheel, using their whole weight to taper-grind each blade so the back and toe-top were thinner than the toothline. That was to avoid the blade "binding in the cut" when working on soft or green wood.
It was punishingly hard and dangerous work. Their day was spent in a fog of grit dust and water. If - as happened sometimes - the wheel exploded, they were literally shredded. Few expected to survive beyond 35. The respect for tham in the industry was so great that, when they left work, they walked down one side of the street; everyone else, down the other.
And in the US and nowadays? You just order bias-rolled 200mm spring-steel coil, from 1.1mm at one edge, 0.50mm at the other.
So grinding was 'heroic' - maybe? But economic – no way.
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okeydokey
Established Member
Just finished watching Made in Britain ITV4 Series 3 episode 8 which showed Thomas Flinn and Co Sheffield making saws and Clifton Planes an excellent insight to their manufacturing skills and commitment and may they long continue!
You might be able to find the programme on catch up on ITV Player
You might be able to find the programme on catch up on ITV Player
johnnyb
Established Member
That's every workshop I've ever worked in..
BC'er
Established Member
Very nice that those are still being made and they may be the finest of their type made, but they're not the finest saws in the world unless they have electrically hardened teeth on the Japanese pattern.
