Sharpening, Steel or both.

[D_W]

Someone will take my advice (maybe five people) and suddenly find out that their chisels don't get dull very fast and that things get easier.

That's the point. Changing jacob's mind isn't. I don't think he cares that much about results and think how much of his career was done with heavy hand tool work that would be similar to what someone making cabinets at a bench would do is a bit misleading.

His advice on routers is probably better.

 

[Jacob]

seems like a summary. I do wonder why you bother with the forum with such fixed ideas.

It's not really a summary though is it - it's a scatter of half baked ideas pretending to be definitive.
I don't think honing a default angle of 32º to 34º is a radical "change" compared honing at 30º and then, in the conventional way, adjusting this steeper for difficult woods, or stropping (a.k.a."buffing") if necessary, which may well end up as 32º who's measuring! A "tiny stripe" at 34º is not different from a full bevel at 34º - if that's what you end up with. Or tightening up the cap iron gap as another adjustment, and so on. A slightly rounded micro bevel is what you get when you freehand hone, or strop, or buff on a machine. This may develop into a macro rounded bevel in time! (Not wishing to introduce yet more jargon into the subject - maybe I should delete that promptly!)
Nothing new. Not reinventing the wheel - more a case of D_W rediscovering it as though for the first time!
My only "fixed" idea is that 30º is a handy starting point (it's easy to visualise etc) but yes 32-34 would do, if that's what turns you on. Not easy to tease out that fixed idea from D_W's long tracts!
It's OK I'll press the ignore button again!

 

[D_W]

That was literally what I stated in the original post that started this. I actually test what I said rather than saying "I don't think". I've seen is a better answer. I can give you something you can test yourself and prove, a better idea.

Apparently when I said you'd be further along to slide the primary bevel down shallower and steepen the tip where damage occurs, it'll:
* last longer
* be easier to nail
* be faster
* eliminate the need for any fast grinding stones

That was just too simple and called rabbit hole. Since then, "I think" is more important than. "I've showed, and you can prove to yourself"

What to see what the difference is chopping slivers of hard maple (like you'd do in half blinds or dovetails) 30 degrees vs. more?

What angle matches the picture to the right? 34. It's not in this picture as it can only get so wide, but 34 stops even the small chipping. 34 is also sharper than 30 within a few strikes due to the lack of damage. Literally takes 10-15 percent fewer strikes to get 32 degrees through an inch of maple than 30, so what do you gain with 30? Nothing.

How many chisels did this differ for? zero, except robert sorby's softest offerings still get a little damage at 34.

No chisel holds up at 30. After an inch of maple (a couple of half blind sockets), you're looking to resharpen.

If you add a few degrees or buff the tip, you'll finish the half blinds (all of them) before you need to sharpen.

Proof is a bridge too far for some, I do realize that. Especially if it's easier to do the method than it is to do another method - it's just too many things better and irrational responses are the only option left.

 

[D_W]

Where does the rubber hit the road with this?

If you come along asking what you should buy to work exotic woods, I will say "nothing - more expensive will be less better than addressing the problem for free. Sorry if the idea is acquisition for dopamine, you can still do that, but the free option is better and here's what it is".

A bridge too far, I know. I've always learned a lot more from the people who prove me wrong than the ones who prove me right (especially bad if I'm wrong to start).

 

[D_W]

(I can post a softer chisel to compare to the above if anyone is interested - a sorby that is probably around 58 hardness. The lower angle results are pretty drastically different, but you can see the effect of improvement in geometry to a chisel that's otherwise almost unusable in hardwoods. I had put the chisels aside a few years ago - love their proportions and intended to reharden them.

Those two are kind of the useful endpoints - the japanese chisel is probably a solid 65 hardness - it's no softer than that.

 

[D_W]

ok, I'll do it, anyway....

unicorn (buffing) isn't even enough to totally save the sorby, but look at the bending on the 30 degree edge.

Ouch.

Just typical maple, not contaminated or anything. Maple and cherry are similarly harsh on edges with maple taking more strikes, so maybe a little accelerated, but anything that holds together in maple generally holds together in cherry, and so on.

The difference in effort to use the 30 degree bevel vs. the buffed profile to the right was about 15%. AS in, it took 15% more strikes to get through the work, but the effort trouble is more than double that, as you get chisels bouncing out of work when they look like the picture above, which results in annoyance and bad temptations (just start smashing away).

I took a picture of the test bed to show what comes off of the chisel when it stays sharp and has the right side profile "unicorn" vs. something like pane 2. The "unicorn" test is obviously the picture on the left. stuff just leafs off of the work, the chisel stays in the cut. This is work for the lazy man, just like the sharpening method.

Things can be physically easy, neat and low risk if you let them be.

(the little bits on the right will shoot off of the work and hit you in the face, too - they sting. I wear glasses, so no issue there, but they still sting elsewhere)

 

[D_W]

In case anyone is wondering where this comes from, I spend about 90% of the time making things, and then about 10% of the time trying to solve something I think is annoying so that it makes the 90% better (as in finer work without more effort, or finer in less effort).

And simpler. not many people do this, but everyone who works entirely by hand will sort of solve these things if they're not hourly, because they'll get annoyed. Most won't do a good job of communicating them, and that's OK. But we'd sure love to wring this kind of stuff out of them if it can be translated for use to people just starting.

Like the sorby thing above - if a chisel holds up similar to the right pane at 34 degrees, and takes less effort to use, and you have to sharpen a 5th as much, who in their right mind would write that off as rabbit hole info. Said person needs to get better and faster at sharpening, but they also need to get through that period of time without quitting or they'll have a wrong idea about how "hard" hand work is. Hand work is easier than machine work. The only part that's not is the physical exercise part, but you'll lose *very* little stock doing hand work and get very fast compared to what you think you will in the first year or so.

 

[baldkev]

I guess next time we are sharpening kit, just give it a whirl, it wont take long to do. If you dont motice a difference, fair enough, nothing lost.
If you do see a difference then youve gained

 

[JoshD]

Given the expertise on show here I hesitate to post; I hand sharpen only, and rather than measure degrees on a big sharpen I just concentrate on mainly grinding what I think of as the heel of the bevel, ie, not the tip, on the coarse grades; if I don't do this the grind angle just goes up and up on successive sharpens; then I sharpen the tip on 1200, allowing the minimal amount of rounding of the bevel that still actually reaches the tip. After a big sharpen I allow myself 2 or 3 small sharpens, only on 1200, which inevitably results in some rounding of the bevel, then it's time for a big sharpen again.

But that's background, it's actually stropping that prompts my question: I use a green waxy stropping paste on a leather and strop both sides of the blade. I do this after both big and small sharpens. Don't get me wrong, I like the results, the polished blade doesn't just cut nicely, it slides smoothly on the workpiece. But after about a year or so of stropping I realise I have added a tiny back bevel, which I don't want and is a major pain to grind out. Is this is an inevitable consequence of stropping, or am I doing it wrong?

 

[Jacob]

......But after about a year or so of stropping I realise I have added a tiny back bevel, which I don't want and is a major pain to grind out. Is this is an inevitable consequence of stropping, ....

Yes. You can't "strop" flat. Perfectly OK for a plane. OK for chisels too, though arguably there are rare circumstances when you really need a dead flat face but I'd wait until this arrives before worrying about it!
In any case every time you remove the burr from the flat face however you do it, you are creating something of a bevel - unless you flatten the whole face every time you sharpen. Hence the notorious "bellied" chisel - it's normal, that's how they end up, even though they start out slightly concave (all the new ones I've ever bought at any rate).

 

[JoshD]

Yes. You can't "strop" flat. Perfectly OK for a plane. OK for chisels too, though arguably there are rare circumstances when you really need a dead flat face but I'd wait until this arrives before worrying about it!
In any case every time you remove the burr from the flat face however you do it, you are creating something of a bevel - unless you flatten the whole face every time you sharpen. Hence the notorious "bellied" chisel - it's normal and unimportant.

How do you then remove the burr after sharpening the bevel? I've been in the habit of sharpening the bevel on each grade until there's a burr, then doing a few strokes of 1200 on the flat face to clear the burr before moving to the next grade. This no longer clears the burr.

 

[Jacob]

How do you then remove the burr after sharpening the bevel? I've been in the habit of sharpening the bevel on each grade until there's a burr, then doing a few strokes of 1200 on the flat face to clear the burr before moving to the next grade. This no longer clears the burr.

Either slightly lift as you take off the burr, which makes a bit of a bevel, or flatten a few more mm of the face - which still makes a bevel but shallower so you'd hardly notice, or a bit of both.

 

[JohnPW]

I think stropping the flat side of the blade on a flat and hard surface, ie not leather, would prevent a back bevel from developing, or at least greatly reduce it. And you would need to raise a big enough burr to remove the "wear bevel", otherwise the edge won't get stropped.

 

[Jacob]

I think stropping the flat side of the blade on a flat and hard surface, ie not leather, would prevent a back bevel from developing, or at least greatly reduce it. And you would need to raise a big enough burr to remove the "wear bevel", otherwise the edge won't get stropped.

I think what I do is take off the burr with the face flat on a fine stone, but with pressure towards the edge end, incidentally encouraging a wide bevel, but then with minimal stropping to the face.
The danger is in "over thinking" things - you risk ending up down the rabbit hole!

 

[D_W]

Given the expertise on show here I hesitate to post; I hand sharpen only, and rather than measure degrees on a big sharpen I just concentrate on mainly grinding what I think of as the heel of the bevel, ie, not the tip, on the coarse grades; if I don't do this the grind angle just goes up and up on successive sharpens; then I sharpen the tip on 1200, allowing the minimal amount of rounding of the bevel that still actually reaches the tip. After a big sharpen I allow myself 2 or 3 small sharpens, only on 1200, which inevitably results in some rounding of the bevel, then it's time for a big sharpen again.

But that's background, it's actually stropping that prompts my question: I use a green waxy stropping paste on a leather and strop both sides of the blade. I do this after both big and small sharpens. Don't get me wrong, I like the results, the polished blade doesn't just cut nicely, it slides smoothly on the workpiece. But after about a year or so of stropping I realise I have added a tiny back bevel, which I don't want and is a major pain to grind out. Is this is an inevitable consequence of stropping, or am I doing it wrong?

Use the paste on medium hardwood or harder softwood instead of leather, or do very little of it on the back. If you strop the bevel side more strongly, you won't need much on the back.

When you use an abrasive, you're sort of stropping and honing at the same time.

 

[D_W]

I think stropping the flat side of the blade on a flat and hard surface, ie not leather, would prevent a back bevel from developing, or at least greatly reduce it. And you would need to raise a big enough burr to remove the "wear bevel", otherwise the edge won't get stropped.

John beat me to It! Leather works best for stropping when it's bare. Honing pastes will be better on a hard surface that has just a little bit of give. Like a harder softwood or mdf.

 

[JoshD]

Thanks to all for the stropping advice!

 

[D_W]

Thanks to all for the stropping advice!

Picture in post 35 (page 2 of this thread) illustrates just how fine something like autosol will be off of wood (above that is iron, corian is similar to that - too hard).

If you use something like that - wood has a bit of give, but less than leather. It is, however, plenty to make the abrasive softer but crisp cutting - the edge is spectacular and if the wood gets out of shape, you can plane it back to flat, scrape it or replace it.

You'll appreciate the speed and control - there's never a need to correct any growing problems.

(top picture is also buffing bar on wood - a fine polishing bar, but not something nutty fineness or expensive - no need for anything expensive - there's no nosebleed priced stone that makes better edges, and expensive natural stones don't make edges as good as either of those two clear pictures).

 

[pe2dave]

How do you then remove the burr after sharpening the bevel? I've been in the habit of sharpening the bevel on each grade until there's a burr, then doing a few strokes of 1200 on the flat face to clear the burr before moving to the next grade. This no longer clears the burr.

src=Paul Sellers. One pass on the strop, flat or simply cut into a piece of softwood endgrain. Burr gone. Try it.
Once the back is flat and smooth, IMHO no need to repeat it. That's the source of your unwanted bevel?

 

[D_W]

you can get away with never really honing the back of an iron, but there's considerable wear on it. If you don't work the back of an iron with something with a good combination of fast and fine, it'll either be coarse or rounded just from wear.

If a honing regime for an iron takes a minute, it's good policy for 20 seconds of that to be on the back. You can do better than paul's method with less effort, even less cost. But it's a "can" not a "have to".