Sharpening chisels - the old way?

[Frank D.]

That's fine Denis,
Goes to show that everyone works differently and has to find a system adapted to their own practices and needs. I keep all my sharpening stuff together, so no extra time there to get something out of "storage". I also see we're not quite talking about the same thing...as I mentioned when I hone only I don't use a jig. But if I do a full sharpening, I do use one. I do heavily cambered blades by hand though. I use Charleworth's method of three bevels too (the first one on a grinder, the other two on stones), which I probably couldn't do very well freehand. This method also saves me time.
But I'm not arguing with you here, as I said to each their own...the hard part is finding a system you can call your own. Like any system you have to stick with it and perfect it. Speed will come no matter what you do, I think.

 

[engineer one]

this is all very well and good, but it does ignore one thing.

if you have not been trained to sharpen, then you have to learn and get the feel, and unless you use a guide, and get used to the feel of sharpening at the right angle, then you will NEVER have properly sharp tools.

i accept that for many people there comes a time when freehand is fine and dandy, but for ordinary mortal, then guides or the tormeks are the way to get you started.

once you have learnt to sharpen, then you can develop extra skills, and spend time learning new methods, but one of the things i was taught as an engineer was learn something as your benchmark, then experiment, but if you do not know where to start, you will be forever floundering.

jacob this method may well work for you, but i feel that you are always looking for methods which do not mean giving in to the modern world, which is fine, but like so many magazine articles leads people to think that it is but a two minute job, when in fact it takes some time to be that quick.

proper sharpening is the only way to ensure that you enjoy your woodworking, but it does take a little time to learn the skill, and you should not be scared of admitting that you do not know.

paul :wink:

 

[dchenard]

i accept that for many people there comes a time when freehand is fine and dandy, but for ordinary mortal, then guides or the tormeks are the way to get you started.

But I am a mere mortal, and freehand sharpening is not hard. I do NOT possess superhuman powers, actually my hands aren't that steady...

I wish I had learned freehand sooner, I would have had more time woodworking... :wink:

DC

 

[engineer one]

but dc you have agreed with my point, you started doing something else and then came to freehand :lol: :lol:

i wonder sometimes whether there ought not to be a health warning on two particular posting types on the site. extraction and sharpening :twisted: :roll: :lol:

let's be really honest, the problem is that tools come not sharpened properly so we have to learn about it before we can start woodworking. :?

all the best
paul :wink:

 

[Frank D.]

Seems like David Charlesworth is still busy learning with all his guides and his Tormek...poor chap!
:lol:

 

[dchenard]

but dc you have agreed with my point, you started doing something else and then came to freehand :lol: :lol:

i wonder sometimes whether there ought not to be a health warning on two particular posting types on the site. extraction and sharpening :twisted: :roll: :lol:

let's be really honest, the problem is that tools come not sharpened properly so we have to learn about it before we can start woodworking. :?

all the best
paul :wink:

Sure, I thought jigs were the way to go at the beginning. I still think they have their place, but I'm just trying to free myself from them...

Honing a blade at 50-55 degree is difficult, and in that case I'll probably go back to the jig if I can't do it satisfactorly freehand. But the lower the bevel angle the easier it is to hone freehand IMHO.

In my view, sharpening freehand is no different than mastering hand-cut dovetails. Practice, practice, and some more practice. I still have a way to go on that front

DC

 

[dchenard]

Seems like David Charlesworth is still busy learning with all his guides and his Tormek...poor chap!
:lol:

Come on, Frank...

You pick whatever method you're happy with, and I'm sure DC won't mind as long as you're getting good results... For the record, I use his ruler trick on all my plane blades (regardless of BU or BD), that is a great time saver. But you know what? The ruler trick is much easier to apply if the blade is not captured in a jig...

DC (the other one)

 

[Anonymous]

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[MikeW]

...Honing a blade at 50-55 degree is difficult, and in that case I'll probably go back to the jig if I can't do it satisfactorly freehand...

Holding the blade sideways to the direction of the honing stroke enables one to hone as high of an angle as one desires.

It also enables full use of the stone fairly easily.

In my view, sharpening freehand is no different than mastering hand-cut dovetails. Practice, practice, and some more practice. I still have a way to go on that front

DC

Pretty much true. But then again, not everyone desires to hone by hand. Not everyone desires to sharpen a saw, not everyone...

This is not directed at anyone in particular. Just another trip to the top of the soapbox...

I think woodworkers often strive for perfection in things like sharpening. Both in how sharp/refined it needs to be as well as absolute angles.

My feeling about guides or motorized equipment is...if it gets one back to work faster, great. Wanna learn to hone by hand? Do it. Don't wanna? Don't.

I also think that if one believes they can get better sharpening by whatever the chosen method is, work wood, sharpen, work more wood, etc., and through the process of doing, one will get better. Sometimes a method just doesn't seem to click and another method is chosen and it does. Great. Use it, but don't stop striving to learn thinking you've arrived.

I know of no professional woodworker who has not changed either their method of sharpening over time, or changed their idea of what sharp is--or both.

Ok. Off the soapbox.

Take care, Mike

 

[Anonymous]

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[bugbear]

This is a different sort of rounded bevel!
The old sort you need to remove by grinding is the result of hasty sharpening where you tilt the chisel ever higher to get a hone on the blunt edge, until eventually it is too steep.
With my rounded bevel the cutting edge never changes i.e. at the cutting edge the tangent to the radius of the curved bevel stays at 30deg to the face.

I don't understand what part of this technique would keep the terminal tangent constant (other than a God like ability to eye ball *exactly* 30 degrees).

It strikes me that your terminal tangent is no more and no less likely to creep upwards that in the "classic" technique of the old books.

BugBear

 

[Alf]

after all I'm not writing this with a fountain pen!

Illusions shattered

3 You have to fiddle again to change from grind angle to hone

If you don't grind by another method anyway.

4 You can't use the full length of the stone (unless you've added a block at each end of the box)

Erm, you can just turn the stone round and go the other way for half the time, can't you...?

5 You can't grind at a skew or in a pattern like figure of 8 - to help even wear on the stone.

If BB isn't along soon to query the figure-of-8 argument then I mis-judge him. (Even as I type this, he beats me to it!)

8 It gets you hung up on getting those bright engineered bevels - they look nice but are completely unnecessary

Mmm, guilty of that as charged. I'm trying to do better, along with not over-sharpening; just because I can get a wicked edge on a scrub blade, there's no excuse to waste time doing so.

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

But I now think that honing jigs actually make the job much more difficult:
>> 1 You have to fiddle about fitting it to the blade.

Takes me around ten seconds - given the overhead of removing a blade from a plane, detaching the capiron, and then reversing the process after honing, this is negligible

>> 2 Not all blades or chisels fit various models
Agreed. But MOST sharpening is done on the MOST used tool. Straight bladed chisels and bench plane irons.

>> 3 You have to fiddle again to change from grind angle to hone
No; if you use traditional European style "double bevel", grinding is very infrequent, and not of consequence in every day sharpening.

>> 4 You can't use the full length of the stone (unless you've added a block at each end of the box)

Agreed. A genuine disadvantage. Since I use multiple stones, I don't have a block. To distribute wear I sometime turn the stone end-for-end.

>> 5 You can't grind at a skew or in a pattern like figure of 8 - to help even wear on the stone. Freehand you can use the whole surface how you like.

Agreed - but see answer to point 2.

>> 6 It gets in the way when you want to turn it over to take off the wire edge

Any small guide with a decent amount of prejection doesn't. I'll agree that
turning the blade over when it's in my big jig is a problem.

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/tour. ... pening_jig

>> 7 It gets in the way if you want to do DavidC's micro bevel
My blades are all fully flat.

>> 8 It gets you hung up on getting those bright engineered bevels - they look nice but are completely unnecessary

They're just a consequence, not a goal.

>> 9 Because it's such a faff it means you are likely to delay touching up your chisel and so spend longer with a dull edge - which defeats the whole object.

see (1).

>> 10 They wear out

So does everything.

>> 11 You can't get maximum pressure on the blade edge - the guide is taking some of the load, unless you lift it slightly so it's not quite touching - but if you can do that you don't need it anyway.

Regular sharpening involves removing small amounts of metal; high pressure are not required or desirable.

>> 12 Doing it freehand is quite easy really and even a beginner shouldn't be put off - infact is better kept well away from a honing guide or he will never get on top of it.

Circular reasoning

>> 13 Double sided stones are cheap - most households have one somewhere even if not in use - in the shed or in a drawer somewhere.

Double sided stones are messy when you turn them over (unless you spend time wiping down every time you turn over); I normally use a sequence of 2 stones, both of which are kept oiled and ready for (quick!) use.

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

why squable about it if you get a decent edge with your devics fine if your more intuitive fine why worry :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

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[Sgian Dubh]

A Lesson in Sharpening.

A perennial subject in woodworking magazines is that of sharpening techniques. No other furniture making topic seems to generate so many words, resulting in the publication of innumerable articles detailing ‘infallible’ or ‘sure fire’ methods of doing the job.

Naturally, the subject is of interest because blunt tools aren't much use. The opening preamble to many of these articles often cause a wry smile for they bring back memories of my initiation into the 'dark' art. Many authors make points about those that struggle at it, and possess a workshop full of dull tools. Conversely, it is often said that those that can do the job tend to be fanatical about grits, slurries and bevel angles.

My experience is that there are really only two types of people when it comes to sharpening.

1. Those that can’t.

2. Those that can.

In the first group, those that can't, you'll sometimes see every sharpening system known to man arrayed around their workshop gathering dust. They have oilstones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, guides, pieces of sandpaper, jigs, etc.. Usually, every hand tool they own is chipped, dull and mostly useless.

In the second group, those that can, I haven’t observed much fanaticism about slurries, grits and bevel angles. In all the workshops I’ve worked in the only concern is to get the job done. It’s a case of, "Plane’s blunt, better sharpen it." Dig out the stone, sharpen the blade, shove it back in the plane, and get on with it. The equipment is minimal. A grinder, a stone and lubricant along with a few slips for gouges and the like.

Going back to the early seventies when I trained, learning how to sharpen tools was undertaken within the first few days. I don’t now recall precisely the order of my instruction, but it went something like this. I was handed a plane by the cabinetmaker I was assigned to and told, "Get that piece o’ wood square."

I didn’t know why, but I’d done a bit of woodworking at school, so I had a vague idea what to do. I fooled around with that lump of wood for twenty or so minutes, and got it something like. All this under the watchful eye of the crusty old guy and his ever present roll-up hanging out of the corner of his mouth.

"Okay, I’ve done that." I said, "Now what do you want me to do?"

I was told to hang about for a minute whilst he picked up his square and straight edge and proceeded to scrutinise my handiwork, which was followed by a non-committal grunt and some desultory foot sweeping of the plentiful shavings on the floor. (The wood was probably only about eighty or so per cent of its original volume!)

"Now sonny, let’s do the next job," he announced. "Pull that jack plane you’ve bin usin’ apairt and let’s have a look at the iron." I did.

"Hold the iron up so’s yuh can see the cuttin' edge," he instructed. Again I did as I was told.

"Now, can yu’ see it? Can yu’ see the ‘line o’ light’ at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.

"Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.

"How shairp does it look to you boy?" he enquired.

I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I’d say."

He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie wi’ me son. If yu’ can see it, it’s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron y'er holdin’ bare-ersed to London and back and no cut ma’sel’. Get o’er here an’ I’ll show yu’ something."

You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox, and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally it was stropped backwards and forwards on the calloused palm of his hand. You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm.

On went the cap iron and the lot was dropped back in the plane followed by a bit of squinting along the sole from the front whilst the lever and knob were fiddled with and that was it. He took a few shavings off a piece of wood and it went back in his toolbox. It took, oh,…......a few minutes.

"Now son, that’s a shairp plane. It’s nae bloody use to me blunt. Yu’ may as well sling a soddin’ blunt yin in the bucket fur'all the use it is to me." He explained with great refinement. "I’ve aboot ten mair o’ them in that box, an’ they’re all blunt. Ah’ve bin savin ‘em for yu’. There’s a bunch a chisels too. Let’s get yu’ started."

For what felt like forever I sharpened his tools for the one and only time he allowed me to under his rheumy eyed and critical stare, and things gradually got better. After a while he stopped telling me what a "completely daft stupit wee bastit," I was, and a bit later he started offering grudging approval. I had to sharpen some tools more than once because he kept on using and dulling them. When I’d done the lot we stopped and surveyed the days work.

"Aye, nae too bad fer a daft laddie's fust effort," he commented darkly, sucking hard on his smoke, "I think ye’ve goat whit it takes. Time’ll tell sonnie. Remember, ye’ll never be a bliddy cabinetmaker if yu’ cannae even shairpen yer feckin’ tools. Lesson over. Dinnae ferget it."

I haven't.

 

[dedee]

Can I assume that the cabinetmaker didn't use a jig then? :lol:

Nice story - I can only wonder how good I might have been had I had a guv'nor like that.

I always thought the first sign of a sharp edge was noticing the blood on the wood before you realised you'd cut youself :lol:

Andy (DMT, Eclipse jig, & wet 'n dry)

 

[houtslager]

SD wrote

"Now, can yu’ see it? Can yu’ see the ‘line o’ light’ at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.

"Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.

"How shairp does it look to you boy?" he enquired.

I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I’d say."

He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie wi’ me son. If yu’ can see it, it’s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron y'er holdin’ bare-ersed to London and back and no cut ma’sel’. Get o’er here an’ I’ll show yu’ something."

You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox, and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally it was stropped backwards and forwards on the calloused palm of his hand. You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm

SNAP only it was in GERMAN and I ain't going to EVEN try putting it in words.
All I remember is that my fingers ,wrists and forearms hurt lilke hell after my first week, 'cause I had 2 "masters" tool chests to sharpen. :?

Now as I type I have my no4 and no 5 waiting to kiss the stone.

 

[Alf]

A Lesson in Sharpening.

Ah, had to happen at some point - I'm sure you resisted last time I tried getting you to post this, Richard. :lol:

Cheers, Alf