Sharpening a draw knife.

[Jacob]

We learned to sharpen at school. It took about 10 minutes to get the idea and a few hours of tool use to get good at it. Not seven years. 7 days max? Nothing has changed - except the desperate efforts of the gadget makers trying to de-skill everybody and sell them stuff instead.

That was back in the mid eighties, at tech college, right?

And then you spent around 20 years as a joiner, principally making sash windows.

And then, a few years ago, you invented your current technique, after a discussion on this very forum.

So - what technique were you taught at college, and what technique did you use for your professional career?

BugBear (curious)

At school in the 50s freehand oil stone. Use of bench grinder deprecated - only for major remedial not for routine sharpening. College in the 80s exactly the same routine.
But stupidly I got into fiddling with jigs, bench grinders as somehow the "precise correct" way, and freehand only for emergencies. Worst of both worlds - sharpening always a bit of a problem.
Then reverted to freehand having discovered the rounded bevel trick and finally got it sorted!
I wouldn't say I "invented" a technique it's just that I realised that the highly deprecated "rounding over" is not the same as "rounding under".
Dipping as you go gives a slightly rounded bevel, is much faster (you can put more effort into it) but retains your chosen edge angle. So the freehand method I'd been doing slightly clumsily for years suddenly became really easy. I wish I'd realised it a lot sooner but better late than never.
It wasn't the result of 10000 hours of developing technique - I was doing it from the beginning but being over-cautious about rounding over - and reading stupid bolox about the new sharpening. Just a misunderstanding.

 

[bugbear]

We learned to sharpen at school. It took about 10 minutes to get the idea and a few hours of tool use to get good at it. Not seven years. 7 days max? Nothing has changed - except the desperate efforts of the gadget makers trying to de-skill everybody and sell them stuff instead.

That was back in the mid eighties, at tech college, right?

And then you spent around 20 years as a joiner, principally making sash windows.

And then, a few years ago, you invented your current technique, after a discussion on this very forum.

So - what technique were you taught at college, and what technique did you use for your professional career?

BugBear (curious)

At school in the 50s freehand oil stone. Use of bench grinder deprecated - only for major remedial not for routine sharpening. College in the 80s exactly the same routine.
But stupidly I got into fiddling with jigs, bench grinders as somehow the "precise correct" way, and freehand only for emergencies. Worst of both worlds - sharpening always a bit of a problem.
Then reverted to freehand having discovered the rounded bevel trick and finally got it sorted!
I wouldn't say I "invented" a technique it's just that I realised that the highly deprecated "rounding over" is not the same as "rounding under".
Dipping as you go gives a slightly rounded bevel, is much faster (you can put more effort into it) but retains your chosen edge angle. So the freehand method I'd been doing slightly clumsily for years suddenly became really easy. I wish I'd realised it a lot sooner but better late than never.
It wasn't the result of 10000 hours of developing technique - I was doing it from the beginning but being over-cautious about rounding over - and reading stupid bolox about the new sharpening. Just a misunderstanding.

So you were using jigs and grinders for your 20 year professional career. Interesting, thanks.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

.....
So you were using jigs and grinders for your 20 year professional career. Interesting, thanks.

BugBear

I see where you are trying to go but you are on your own.
Basically I was sharpening inefficiently - but then I was mostly machining anyway, just tweaking with hand-tools as necessary.
But where it really mattered; on-site where hand-tools come into their own, it had to be freehand only for obvious reasons; you can't fiddle with jigs and paraphernalia if you are trying to get some work done under pressure, away from the workshop.

 

[Andy Kev.]

All the naysayers are assuming that everybody uses a jig went straight from not knowing how to sharpen to using a jig.

Well that's not me and I suspect a lot of others too. I can sharpen almost everything freehand- including a drawknife- but when I tried the Galbert tool I just found it worked better for me and was easier too. So yes, I can sharpen it freehand the way I used to, but I prefer now to use the guide. I also prefer using a guide for chisels narrower than 1/4".

In reality, it's the "one-way only" guys that are limiting their skill base.

I agree with this, although I am one of those who went from knowing nothing and so started with a jig.

Partly at the insistence of the views of people like Jacob on here (they obvoiusly knew what they were on about) I kept trying to hand sharpen and now will happily break off work to hone up any edge wider than 1/4". I also know when I'm happier using a honing guide. While I think it makes a lot of sense to listen to all opinions, I can see no particular advantage in being a purist for the sake of it. It's just a matter of finding what suits you best in an informed sort of way.

 

[bugbear]

Basically I was sharpening inefficiently - but then I was mostly machining anyway, just tweaking with hand-tools as necessary.

But where it really mattered; on-site where hand-tools come into their own, it had to be freehand only for obvious reasons; you can't fiddle with jigs and paraphernalia if you are trying to get some work done under pressure, away from the workshop.

Yes, I've had a carpenter on site. I remember him using a steel hammer to power a plastic handled chisel down through chipboard, supported by concrete. The chipboard was removed in pieces. I guess he didn't mind too much about the edge of that chisel, nor how he sharpened it. His tools were all jumbled in a traditional hessian bag.

But a cabinet maker, making furniture in a workshop, would have a wider range of sharpening techniques to choose from.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

....
But a cabinet maker, making furniture in a workshop, would have a wider range of sharpening techniques to choose from.

BugBear

But if under any pressure at all to produce stuff would soon revert to the simplest and quickest means of sharpening - and once found would not go back.

 

[bugbear]

....
But a cabinet maker, making furniture in a workshop, would have a wider range of sharpening techniques to choose from.

BugBear

But if under any pressure at all to produce stuff would soon revert to the simplest and quickest means of sharpening - and once found would not go back.

Can't disagree with that. :wink:

BugBear

 

[blackrodd]

When I started my apprenticeship, I was not sweeping up and making tea for any period of time, Looking back on it,
on working in the variousplaces, in the timber sheds sorting and stacking, working in the mill, sawshop and in the joinery shop, this was all about attitude to learning, doing exactly as instructed, when instructed.
In the joinery shop, when the newly purchased plane and chisels needed attention, we were shown how to sharpen them, 4 different blokes, same basic principle.
This is it! the first step on the ladder to being a tradesman, so you had to learn, soak up the knowledge, as instructed.
Flatten the back of the iron once and then sharpen free hand on a combi stone, no shortcuts no gadgets.
After 3, or 4 goes we're there! It was easy, really.
Some of these gadgets make you lazy, got a gadget, can't be bothered and as my mentor said, where do you stop?
Sharpening and honing are a "hand" craft, stance, and hand co ordination are necessary.
Much the same as sawing dovetails and tenons, you have to practice and practice until you get it right!
Use a honing gadget If you rally can't master it, or can't be arsed, are too impatient to get involved with any thing fiddly, Do what works for you, it's nice to see you here, I'm not the sharpest knife in the draw, but if I can do it,-----
If it were not for the Hard point saw, Just think how many questions there would be on saw setting and file angles
What is the best steel hardness, and still be able to file.
Is it really possible to set a saw with a nail punch! (As a customer said he did in our saw shop once)! etc etc
Do I really need the £300.00 veritas saw set Or, Look! Iv'e just bought the leigh vally chrome and gold saw tooth topper, a snip at £175.00.
Many thanks for the draw knife tips, very much appreciated, as are ALL the comments and replies.
Regards Rodders
PS,Please Phil, no TL, DR!

 

[D_W]

Well said, Rodders. The guides get you started if you don't have a couple of masters to show how, but they are a detriment if you don't move on - they separate you from just understanding something that is extremely simple and that you can learn to do without getting geometric equations or stop blocks or whatever involved. We're in a constant feedback loop - we're using the tools. There really isn't going to be some disaster occurring without them.

I wish I would've had a shop master show me how to sharpen, i chanced into sharpening the same way most professionals do, for the same reason as jacob says - sooner or later you get tired of screwing around or can't afford the time to do it.

 

[Jacob]

Basically I was sharpening inefficiently - but then I was mostly machining anyway, just tweaking with hand-tools as necessary.

But where it really mattered; on-site where hand-tools come into their own, it had to be freehand only for obvious reasons; you can't fiddle with jigs and paraphernalia if you are trying to get some work done under pressure, away from the workshop.

Yes, I've had a carpenter on site. I remember him using a steel hammer to power a plastic handled chisel down through chipboard, supported by concrete. The chipboard was removed in pieces. I guess he didn't mind too much about the edge of that chisel, nor how he sharpened it. His tools were all jumbled in a traditional hessian bag.

But a cabinet maker, making furniture in a workshop, would have a wider range of sharpening techniques to choose from.

BugBear

Cabinet maker in the workshop has it easy. As a rule furniture is easier than trad joinery and you don't have to do it on site with no machines and sometimes no electricity.
I've had to do things like scribing and mitreing Georgian skirting, architraves and dado rail mouldings all round a room including dressing it around pilasters and bending it into curved alcoves, all by hand and eye, no machines at all. Probably getting on for 100 joints in one big room. Carpenters axe come in handy for scribing and it's one place where a rip saw suddenly becomes essential. No bench of course but a pair of saw horses, g clamps and door wedge devices instead.
Effective sharpening is key. No turning up with granite slabs, glass plates, several jigs, lashings of emery paper, no place to flatten waterstones, and so on! One oil stone does it all.

 

[Trafalgar]

Finish carpenters ("joiners") over here have it easy. By the time they hit the scene electricity has been available for weeks. Most of these guys pull up with panel trucks fitted out as well or better than a furniture maker's shop.

 

[custard]

Most of these guys pull up with panel trucks fitted out as well or better than a furniture maker's shop.

Same in this country. The care some tradesmen put into their van fit-outs often makes me think it's the modern day equivalent of the ornately decorated and fitted out tool chest!

 

[G S Haydon]

What a perfect way of putting it!

 

[D_W]

I doubt what passes for finish carpentry over here bears much resemblance to joinery in England.

It's mostly cut, place, nail finger jointed stuff as far as I've seen, unless someone is doing historic work.

The guys running on the ground usually have the tools to do very good work, but are in too much of a hurry to do it. There are exceptions (I found three guys to hire to finish out a room, and they did neat work and used stock nicer than I've found - but you talk to most people, and they'll say "i heard they do good work, but they're too expensive". Their truck is plain, their skills are not).

 

[custard]

I doubt what passes for finish carpentry over here bears much resemblance to joinery in England.

I've seen finish carpentry in both countries, there really isn't that much difference. Don't fall for the myth of the "fabled British craftsmen", we sell that story to help with exports and self esteem, but underneath it's mainly guys who've had similar training, use similar materials, tools, and techniques, and at the end of the day produce similar results.

 

[D_W]

I doubt what passes for finish carpentry over here bears much resemblance to joinery in England.

I've seen finish carpentry in both countries, there really isn't that much difference. Don't fall for the myth of the "fabled British craftsmen", we sell that story to help with exports and self esteem, but underneath it's mainly guys who've had similar training, use similar materials, tools, and techniques, and at the end of the day produce similar results.

That's a bummer! oversunk nails, gaps and calk are what keeps everything going here.

 

[blackrodd]

I doubt what passes for finish carpentry over here bears much resemblance to joinery in England.

I've seen finish carpentry in both countries, there really isn't that much difference. Don't fall for the myth of the "fabled British craftsmen", we sell that story to help with exports and self esteem, but underneath it's mainly guys who've had similar training, use similar materials, tools, and techniques, and at the end of the day produce similar results.

You're right there, This is partly due to trying to teach in a classroom, and not enough emphasis on sitework.
As on the last big site I worked on, I dread seeing the typical overpriced VW van, full of kit, everything strapped to the fat tool belt that needs a pair of braces to keep them from falling down!
The thing they mostly want to use is the nail gun and BO screwdriver, and constantly on the bloody 'phone, but sadly they weren't taught any different.
The only hope of a continued quality of trades men, (and women) is with the smaller 1, and 2 band workshops, such as some members on here hopefully will need to expand an apprentice.
Regards Rodders

 

[Trafalgar]

I doubt what passes for finish carpentry over here bears much resemblance to joinery in England.

I've seen finish carpentry in both countries, there really isn't that much difference. Don't fall for the myth of the "fabled British craftsmen", we sell that story to help with exports and self esteem, but underneath it's mainly guys who've had similar training, use similar materials, tools, and techniques, and at the end of the day produce similar results.

That's a bummer! oversunk nails, gaps and calk are what keeps everything going here.

In cheap tract homes, yes.

How about these guys: http://www.commorata-berardi.com/catego ... =libraries

Fine interior craftsmanship is available for a price.

 

[Dovetaildave]

Basic PPE, inexpensive and much valued on occasions.