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stef

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ok, there 's been a few threads on this one.
but here i am, just been anounced that the mighty company i work for does not need our site in their books anymore. so it's 110 french people and 1 scot out of their jobs.

thing is, in my field, there is 1 chance in 50 million that i will find something again within 6 month, within a 500km radius (excluding paris.. cant bear the place, will NEVER live there)
and if i did find such a job, such companies a dropping like flies at the moment, so it might not be a steady job.

overall, i cant complain, pay has been good for the 2 years i have been there, and it got me back to France, in normandy, with a completely new life style compared to the life in Leeds.

but what now ?

i have been toying with the idea of setting up a wood working business.
however:
i am not a qualified carpenter. i do a few things for my own gratification and my living room, but it is not professional grade. besides, i take ages.
so cabinet making is not really on the cards for now.
BUT. there are things i can do.
I can plan ahead, i can have visions (not like i hear voices or anything), i can use brain power and given enough time i can make something sellable out of wood.

so here is the current vision:
one plan out of this is to setup a woodworking business that makes only a handfull of products, but "mass" produce them. dedicated to a specific market. The idea is to produce {and hopefully} sell loads, rather than wait for customer orders. So far, i have not seen anywhere obvious doing just that (apart from ikea). over here, we tend to find BIG branches selling mostly crap. sometimes, you'll find some decent furniture shop, with a 2-3 weeks waiting time for delivery (basically made to order or in china).
of course, you will also find proper cabinet makers who would make anything (again on order).
Maybe it's a question of advertising, maybe it just doesnt exist, but if tomorow, i wanted a solid oak bed to buy and take away with me, i'd struggle.
 
for the business i have in mind, i would not be making beds.
I have something in mind which currently takes me 2 days to make, for around 20 pounds. the equivelent retails for around 150 pounds.
I could "mass produce" them to get down to 1 hour per item..would be tricky, but i reckon it's doable.
i would need a good salesman and some help in the shop. making the business a 3 people venture.
i would need good storage, and good transport, a good webiste, and advertising.

being a complete spring chicken, what have i missed, and what is it that's going to make me crash miserably ?
 
Stef, Setting-up a business in France can be a bit tricky but don't let it put you off. Trades are heavily protected in France; if you wish to purely sell furniture then thats fine as you can do so without having any formal training/paperwork etc... Different case if you are planning to do structural work like roofs/stairs etc

You need to attend a course at your local 'La Chambre des Métiers' I think it takes about 5-days and all you do is sit there while they waffle-on about stuff that really is of no help but its the only way to register as an Artisan and to obtain a siret number.

France has just introduced a new system called l'Auto-entrepreneur, it was created to make it easier for individuals to become self-employed and can be done online for 1 Euro, I had to invest 7.5k when I set myself up a few years back.... :(

Are you planning to target the expat community? if so PM me and I'll give you some tips...

Russ
 
Russ":pdidiz2d said:
Stef, Setting-up a business in France can be a bit tricky but don't let it put you off. Trades are heavily protected in France; if you wish to purely sell furniture then thats fine as you can do so without having any formal training/paperwork etc... Different case if you are planning to do structural work like roofs/stairs etc

You need to attend a course at your local 'La Chambre des Métiers' I think it takes about 5-days and all you do is sit there while they waffle-on about stuff that really is of no help but its the only way to register as an Artisan and to obtain a siret number.

France has just introduced a new system called l'Auto-entrepreneur, it was created to make it easier for individuals to become self-employed and can be done online for 1 Euro, I had to invest 7.5k when I set myself up a few years back.... :(

Are you planning to target the expat community? if so PM me and I'll give you some tips...

Russ

Thanks Russ.
I have no particular target market (at least not on nationality)
the aim would be to sell a few hundred units every month, possibly a couple of thousand. We are not talking small shop activity anymore, i guess. and i dont think it falls under the self employed category either.
I have a few accountants in my relations, so i can get help there.
And this voulme is for me the scary bit. How to shift all this ? Carefull planing and a very efficient network would be required.

I guess my question is more related to this type of business model. production for "on the shelf" availability. It is not something i have seen very often done on a smaller scale than Ikea. Is there any reason why ?
Ok, you do see some "pine furniture shops" that will do just that, but they dont seem to be very efficient at develloping and moving up a gear. or is it that i havent been looking properly ?
 
Hello Stef, look at my business which is for sale or could be franchised, location not important www.reelfurniture.co.uk using reclaimed timber. Right now it is really taking off, the rocker will be in the Sustainable Garden at the Gardeners World BBC show.

I have designed all wood joints out of the range. Use eco laquers etc
i could send you more info if interested.

David
 
DMD":2mps1dl1 said:
Hello Stef, look at my business which is for sale or could be franchised, location not important www.reelfurniture.co.uk using reclaimed timber. Right now it is really taking off, the rocker will be in the Sustainable Garden at the Gardeners World BBC show.

I have designed all wood joints out of the range. Use eco laquers etc
i could send you more info if interested.

David

David I clicked the link but get a page forbidden message
 
DMD":2s8tlcwo said:
Hello Stef, look at my business which is for sale or could be franchised, location not important www.reelfurniture.co.uk using reclaimed timber. Right now it is really taking off, the rocker will be in the Sustainable Garden at the Gardeners World BBC show.

I have designed all wood joints out of the range. Use eco laquers etc
i could send you more info if interested.

David
thanks David,
but it is not really what i am looking for. i already have a product range in mind. and it's not competing with your designs.
on the other hand i would be interested to know how it worked out (PM, if you want). in terms of volume, especially and in terms of profit. also how you handle stock, and shipping, as well as your sales network, how did you set that up ?
i know, plenty of trades secrets not to be revealed here, but you never know, unless you ask !
 
Stef
on the other hand i would be interested to know how it worked out (PM, if you want). in terms of volume, especially and in terms of profit. also how you handle stock, and shipping, as well as your sales network, how did you set that up ?
i know, plenty of trades secrets not to be revealed here, but you never know, unless you ask ![/quote]

What I have written below will possibly hurt you but it is meant to be well meaning.

From the above I have taken that you are an inexperienced beginner. Someone who is very proficient in his technical experience but has little commercial business experience.

The good news is that we all start off that way. The bad news is that you are starting off this way.

In the above quote you mention sales, distribution, efficiency etc etc.

Do the following:
1) Stop worrying and start solving. Get your accountant family involved first for at least 15 hrs a week.
2) Write a plan based on produced volumes which starts with low volumes and ramps up. Try to bracket the figuers to lowest and worst case, medium and likely case, and most successful case. Have a case which is 50% of the worst case just to see what will happen. Thats volumes, costs, profit, physical resources eg. factory, R&D, packing, etc etc. Its just a spreadsheet at first and become real as you have a plan to commit to.
3) establish your personal need for cash to live on at whatever style of life you think you need. Thios will give you the base line for your business success and until you reach it you will be broke. See if you can cover yourself until you start to make money from the business.
4) Write a business case. Decide on how to sell, distribute, warehouse etc etc. Remember that you will not be producing 000's from day 1 you might only be producing 5 to 6 per day. Establish when the following volumes become relevant 10 per day, 50 per day, 100 per day, 250 per day etc all of which are in some way sold so you have to understand how you will be selling.. This will tell you when each volume becomes a problem of sales, distribution etc etc. You do not have to solve each problem simultaneously and each problem changes based on volumes.

So thats your starter. Get planning. If you don't know enough then ask or buy some help. Most businesses follow an organic growth pattern and not a big bang to massive volumes.

Get real.

Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity, cash is survival.

regards
Alan
 
beech1948":3iidgizj said:
Stef
on the other hand i would be interested to know how it worked out (PM, if you want). in terms of volume, especially and in terms of profit. also how you handle stock, and shipping, as well as your sales network, how did you set that up ?
i know, plenty of trades secrets not to be revealed here, but you never know, unless you ask !

What I have written below will possibly hurt you but it is meant to be well meaning.

From the above I have taken that you are an inexperienced beginner. Someone who is very proficient in his technical experience but has little commercial business experience.

The good news is that we all start off that way. The bad news is that you are starting off this way.

In the above quote you mention sales, distribution, efficiency etc etc.

Do the following:
1) Stop worrying and start solving. Get your accountant family involved first for at least 15 hrs a week.
2) Write a plan based on produced volumes which starts with low volumes and ramps up. Try to bracket the figuers to lowest and worst case, medium and likely case, and most successful case. Have a case which is 50% of the worst case just to see what will happen. Thats volumes, costs, profit, physical resources eg. factory, R&D, packing, etc etc. Its just a spreadsheet at first and become real as you have a plan to commit to.
3) establish your personal need for cash to live on at whatever style of life you think you need. Thios will give you the base line for your business success and until you reach it you will be broke. See if you can cover yourself until you start to make money from the business.
4) Write a business case. Decide on how to sell, distribute, warehouse etc etc. Remember that you will not be producing 000's from day 1 you might only be producing 5 to 6 per day. Establish when the following volumes become relevant 10 per day, 50 per day, 100 per day, 250 per day etc all of which are in some way sold so you have to understand how you will be selling.. This will tell you when each volume becomes a problem of sales, distribution etc etc. You do not have to solve each problem simultaneously and each problem changes based on volumes.

So thats your starter. Get planning. If you don't know enough then ask or buy some help. Most businesses follow an organic growth pattern and not a big bang to massive volumes.

Get real.

Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity, cash is survival.

regards
Alan

yes, i take all this in. thanks for the inputs. i will digest them thouroughly.

I have already done the spreadsheet exercise (roughly), margin calculations, proformas, and so on. i maybe need to work a little on the "ramp up" timing.
I am realistic enough to understand that i will not be selling 500 units a months from day 1. however, i am also realistic enough to understand that if i dont plan this from day one, it will not go anywhere. that's due to the nature of the business (it needs carefull stock and sales planning) and also due to the critical mass this type of business needs to get going.

i need to plan for a capacity of 0.5k from day one. not start up in my garage, putting those things together, and selling them on one by one. this i have already done.
This would barely keep me alive, and not give me anytime whatsoever to increase capacity. if i got the process down to one piece an hour, i can make 8, assuming i can find the time to sell half of them (impossible), i could possibly pay the rent ...this is to me (naively) the short fall of cabinet making as a profession.
So i need to start small, for sure, but with the capacity to go bigger within a few months. this means 3 people from the start. 2 in the shop, one setting up the supply and sales. if i dont get 05.k units sold a months withing a year, the 3 people venture will not survive. If i start too small, it will not get any momentum to grow.
This is sort of why i am trying to get as much insight into the problems i will get into, before actually going anywhere.

i have production and quality control experience, so that part feels natural to me. where it gets tough is the practical aspect of the sale and distribution. and also trying to work out why this is not developped as much as it is. from my naive point of view, it's the only way to go.. so why isnt it done this way ? this means i must be wrong, or missed something out (but what !)

but overall, thanks for your reply, (not hurtfull in anyway ! i am pretty green to business (despite tremendous success on 3 hobbyst ventures! the ROI i got out of those was stunning..but just a hobby ;-)) but pretty much interested in it.
i have done more or less what you suggested (although i spent only 2-3 hours with an accountant, who talked me thought the basic planing/budgeting process.) apart from point 4.. this is to me the dark zone i need to look into. in my spreadsheets, this just drop down as a fraction of cost, which i fixed arbitrarily..not good enough.
 
Stef,
OK sounds like you have made a rough start up spreadsheet.

<apart>>>

A business case is only a representation of the real world.

Try the following:-


http://www.method123.com/business-case.php?gclid=CMjs7PXq9ZoCFcE63godRCopdQ


http://www.businessplanpro.co.uk/?gclid=CPPs0eXr9ZoCFcE63godRCopdQ

http://www.innovativebusinessdesign.com/
Try a Google on business case pro forma. You will have to dig a bit for a good one. Your accountant family member though should be able to provide you with one easily.

regards
Alan
 
being a complete spring chicken, what have i missed, and what is it that's going to make me crash miserably ?

Hi Stef. You are being understandably cagey about the precise product you have in mind. The problem is, if your idea is not patentable (and not many are), how long do you imagine it will take for someone to take notice of any success you are having and to reproduce it with CNC machines and/or Indonesian cabinetmakers on £1.00 a week?. I should say all the eggs in one basket is what you have missed.

At your target of 2000 per month, retailing at £150.00, that's £300,000.00 turnover per year. It seems rather a lot for something that's being described as a cottage industry. Either you have discovered a way of printing money or it will take some serious investment to produce at that rate. Either way, you have to be pretty confident that you can beat off all the more experienced and aggressive competition.

Sorry if it comes across as a bit "Dragons' Den"!

John
 
moz":1wdw7hjh said:
being a complete spring chicken, what have i missed, and what is it that's going to make me crash miserably ?

Hi Stef. You are being understandably cagey about the precise product you have in mind. The problem is, if your idea is not patentable (and not many are), how long do you imagine it will take for someone to take notice of any success you are having and to reproduce it with CNC machines and/or Indonesian cabinetmakers on £1.00 a week?. I should say all the eggs in one basket is what you have missed.

At your target of 2000 per month, retailing at £150.00, that's £300,000.00 turnover per year. It seems rather a lot for something that's being described as a cottage industry. Either you have discovered a way of printing money or it will take some serious investment to produce at that rate. Either way, you have to be pretty confident that you can beat off all the more experienced and aggressive competition.

Sorry if it comes across as a bit "Dragons' Den"!

John

not at all, if i am posting here, is to be challenged, so it's all welcome.
i didnt give you a lot of details, i admit. i was saying that the product currently retails at 150. however, i sliced a big chunk of this in my plan, 1-to be competitive and 2- to give some margin to the distribution network (shops or whatever that may be).

what i have in mind is also not a single product, but a family of products, and what makes it stand out is their direct availability vs craftmanship.
it's a familly of product that already exist, and some that you do get direct of the shelf. however, quality is poor, and prices way too high..as i said, 150 for some crap, which i have made for 20 (materials only). most of them probably do come from china already.
 
As an ex manufacturer for 25+ years (in a different field) I can tell you it is hard work. Shifting volume through the factory is fine when things are well organised and problem free. Once people or machines start letting you down things quickly get expensive and a what was profitable job can cost you money.

I have no desire to get back in business but if I did I certainly wouldn't be daft enough to set up and make things myself again. Sub contract the making to someone already set up to do it.

I also wonder if you have taken middle mens margins into account - the retailer particularly. If it sells for 150 they may be buying for 70 - so you will have to make for less than that by the time you add in distribution costs.

The other problem you will have from start up is credibility. The retailer needs good supply and consistent quality and would rather buy from the existing proven supplier than risk problems from a new one.

At the end of the day if you believe in the idea then just do it. I started out far more naive than I thought I was...made mistakes..nearly failed and then succeeded. Business involves risk. If you judge the rewards worth the risk then go for it.
 
RobertMP":3jiqh9ws said:
Sub contract the making to someone already set up to do it.
that's a very good option.
RobertMP":3jiqh9ws said:
I also wonder if you have taken middle mens margins into account - the retailer particularly. If it sells for 150 they may be buying for 70 - so you will have to make for less than that by the time you add in distribution costs.
i have, but not up to 50%.

RobertMP":3jiqh9ws said:
The other problem you will have from start up is credibility. The retailer needs good supply and consistent quality and would rather buy from the existing proven supplier than risk problems from a new one.

yes, i hadnt given this problem that much thought.
 
stef":mw3khcv9 said:
[..as i said, 150 for some crap, which i have made for 20 (materials only). most of them probably do come from china already.

i know this is an old thread but thought that this point was worth picking up - if you make it for £20 materials only then you cant make it for £20 as you have to also factor in your overheads (workshop rent, tool wear and tear, insurance, advertising, material wastage, storage, shipping etc) and your time.

so over all you are probably looking at at least another 20 odd notes per item for overhead plus a reasonable hourly rate (£10 p/h ? ) so if it takes you two hours to make thats another 20 notes

total price about (optimistically) £60 per item

now okay the competing crap is being sold retail for £150 but you can bet that the shops arent paying that for them - probably about a 40% - 50% or more retail mark up

so you are putting your £60 item up against an established one (presumably with security of supply) that costs the shops only slightly more - sorry to be negative but to me that doesnt look like a good business proposition.

The bottom line is that it is virtually impossible for a maker in the west to compete on volume items against imports from china, taiwan etc - which is why so much manufacture is out sourced there
 
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