Selling advice

[jb94]

As mentioned before, it takes no time to download the free Zettle app which uses your phone as a contactless POS terminal - I think folks are more likely to tap and pay than to want do a bank transfer. Cash is great, but you have to manage it, take a 'float' and deal with change.



If you have a printer then bang a few sheets of thin card through it to make A6 postcards with an up to date QR code, website details etc.. I have some A6 'thank you' postcards commercially printed with generic QR codes on the front (website, newsletter, YouTube, Instagram etc..) and then put any event-specific show specials on a label on the reverse - time limit any discounts to encourage purchases. FWIW I've had far better experience with Digital Printing - http://digitalprinting.co.uk - than I ever had the likes of vistaprint.



Yep, with a QR code to your store in the corner of every photo.

Good luck with it.

Thanks I’ll try out the zettle app

 

[jb94]

I drink beer but don’t carry cash. I wouldn’t do a direct bank transfer as that gives you my bank details and having just met you at a show don’t know you.

I hope it’s a success but perhaps take a look at the Zettle or SumUp apps to take contactless payments on a smartphone. It takes less than 15 minutes to set up.

Very good points re: transfer,
I’ll download the sumup app, I didn’t realise you could accept payments via tapping on the iPhone I always assumed you had to have a card reader.

I guess for chip+pin you do but it’s only small value contactless at this event

 

[Etaf]

depends on the age of the phone

https://www.nfcdirect.co.uk/nfc-information/nfc-phone-list.htm
NFC smart phones which have the facility to accept the TAP & Pay

Also you may need a business PAYPAL account - easy to change if you already have one - or set one up - help line is good for paypal
Then sign in to the paypal / zettle account from the APP, i think paypal associate the zettle login - but explained on last link i posted and the TAP on just phone option with zettle

Not used the phone on its own, so dont know happens when the card asks to be inserted to use - my cards often do that

no idea on sumup - fees charges etc
i only have used paypal and thats all linked into the website too - very easy to do that and take card payments via website, so all 1 solution for ebay, website free plugin for wordpress , cardreader etc

 

[Stigmorgan]

Having set up my Zettle account recently it took about 15 minutes, you will need to set up as a business which will give you a new account, it won't allow you to use your personal PayPal account, apparently you could before PayPal bought zettle but now they own it you have to have a separate account but that's better as it will be easier to monitor/keep track of the business money.
As said already, your phone is the contactless card reader, only need the device for if you get asked to enter the pin which is usually for larger amounts but sometimes just as a random safety check.

 

[HOJ]

New one on me, is it a better alternative to Etsy? Mademe

 

[Stigmorgan]

New one on me, is it a better alternative to Etsy? Mademe

Seems to have mixed reviews, main issue seems to be that not enough people use it or are aware of it.

 

[Etaf]

Well, as mentioned , I as was at the Stanstead Garden Show today -last one after 30 years - shame we have been going for 20+ each year.
And as expected , i saw a lot more wood crafts then i probably would have noticed, having seen this thread , BUT we did buy a novelty wood product from one of the craftsman.
All the usual cheeseboards, etc etc quite a few stands of those , and pens, bottle openers etc - and on the outside a lot of the large garden / indoor furniture stalls , tables and chairs etc
BUT , I had never seen these before
https://www.facebook.com/Matthewswoodworks
purchased a PIG extendable triviet - other half loves Pigs, and usually on the way to the show we pass a hug pig farm (which was not there this year , just crops ) so a reminder of going to the show , and it will sit on the dining table and then with the string - we can just extend it and bring out HOT dishes , which we often do.
https://www.facebook.com/Matthewswoodworks
In fact you can see his stand at the show and goods on facebook ...

good luck this weekend ......

 

[jb94]

Cheers all for your support.

Didn’t have a huge amount of time to prepare given the notice, but managed to get a SumUp card reader - which was worth it as half the sales went through that and half cash.

Top seller was the bottle openers, it was a good amount of money to part with (£10) and acted as a little memento from the event.

I thought the beer paddles would have proved more popular, I did get some comments and admiring looks when I took one of the paddles up to the pumps and made myself a tasting platter!

Plenty of business cards given out and had a few questions about weddings, commissions etc so we’ll see what comes next.

Only problem was my website wasn’t finished due to timeframe, so business cards have Etsy, instagram, and email on them. At least they can still get in touch, and once website is live I can get new ones printed.

 

[Etaf]

given the very short notice you had, seems like a really good result.

and had a few questions about weddings, commissions etc

never know what may come of that , when i gave out business cards, and put flyers through letter boxes, As a trainer / help with computers , back around 2010 when silver surfers was the thing to help.
I was surprised how many contacted me years later.

What is it you advertised for weddings and commissions discussed

 

[jb94]

given the very short notice you had, seems like a really good result.

never know what may come of that , when i gave out business cards, and put flyers through letter boxes, As a trainer / help with computers , back around 2010 when silver surfers was the thing to help.
I was surprised how many contacted me years later.

What is it you advertised for weddings and commissions discussed

Just spoke to a couple who were getting married soon and talked about the things I’ve made previously like cake stands, groomsmen gifts, pictures hoops etc
and commissions was a charcuterie board.

No specifics, but gave indication of what can be done and contact details so we’ll see what comes up

 

[jb94]

Also had my iPad set up on slideshow showcasing past work so people could see what I’ve done

 

[johnnyb]

I love your positivity. Its great. And will be a great bonus when interacting with customers.
I tend to avoid direct selling at all costs as I find it a bit awkward with limited exposure and high time demands. But as a single entity you need a plan that doesn't involve doing everything yourself. Even if it costs per cent.

 

[johnnyb]

I would class a good product as selling at least one a day with a take of at least £80 after making. That's 5 or 7 a week. 5×45=225 made every year. 2 of those products and you've got a wage. Four at half that rate is good as well. But only netting £18000 not great! Then you start seeing the problems of making anything in this country. Selling/shipping one every day of a product the takes £80 is still only min wage. The product itself by the time its with the consumer may be double so £160 not an insignificant sum. Small businesses are inconsistent to. So 12 one week none next etc.

 

[Cabinetman]

Unfortunately you are correct, and there is a lot more money in odd job type work, a shelf unit to fit an alcove etc, strange but true, also gets you out talking and spreading knowledge of you.
Flyers through letterboxes and local Parish magazine are a good start. It’s surprising how good work will spread your name.
Ian

 

[Sgian Dubh]

It’s surprising how good work will spread your name. Ian

This may have already been mentioned in this thread, but extending what you said sort of leads to a truism that goes:

It can take years to develop a good reputation in business, but you can also lose that reputation in a moment with one bad job. Slainte.

 

[Jameshow]

Unfortunately you are correct, and there is a lot more money in odd job type work, a shelf unit to fit an alcove etc, strange but true, also gets you out talking and spreading knowledge of you.
Flyers through letterboxes and local Parish magazine are a good start. It’s surprising how good work will spread your name.
Ian

But fair type work might be just the ticket if and when odd job work drys up.

Also don't discount semi personal events to gain work, like the livery BBQ barndance on Saturday.

But be careful only to do the work your happy doing..... Pointing hip tiles is a no from me as it gutters at heights!

 

[johnnyb]

I have a very mixed approach with workshop being least profitable annoyingly. Domestic joinery, kitchens and bathrooms being nicely profitable. But I try and not to push myself into jobs I can't price 110% as the pricing is worth double the fitting in my way of wondering. Anything a bit dicey and I'm gone! If it smells a bit unusual I'm away. I've done enough to know what a good job looks like. It's why specialising can be best I can do plenty things but I struggle to properly price aspects. The workshop products easily pay the rent and more in quiet times. But this multi strand approach has taken years to get going.

 

[Yorkieguy]

This may come across as frightfully negative, and maybe there are those who have, and continue to make a good living at it, and enjoy giving up time to have stalls at craft fairs etc, or to wait for the orders to come in on an auction site/website (then pack and post them). If it’s marginal extra income, just as there are those who enjoy having a table at a car boot sale, then fine, but don’t expect to make even the minimum living wage, when all costs and time are factored in. The 'opportunity cost' of such activities is the lost opportunity to do something else which would be more financially rewarding, but maybe less enjoyable or fulfilling. The enigma can be that as hobbyists, what are we going to do with all the stuff we turn - let it all pile up, or scale back an activity we enjoy so much?

What seems to happen with woodturning, (as with other crafts), is that initially, someone fancies it as a hobby, starting off with 'all the gear & no idea' - inexperienced, but full of enthusiasm. Over time, when they've turned enough little projects such as mushrooms from branch-wood or whatever, they gain experience and expand their ‘repertoire’, making pens, little bowls, bigger bowls, lidded boxes, clocks, bud vases, fruit, light pulls, Christmas baubles, garden dibbers, honey dippers, flour scoops, door wedges, salt & pepper grinders, small toys such as colourful spinning tops etc. Initially they give them as presents to friends, acquaintances, relatives, co-workers, all of whom are appreciative, but they only want so many pens and other ‘nick knacks’.

The enthusiastic hobbyist enjoys turning so much that items start to pile up and they need to do something with them, so they start thinking about craft fairs, market stalls, auction sites, a website etc, to sell their wares and at least cover their materials costs, so they can continue to enjoy the hobby. At best, from a pricing perspective, they’re only likely to recover the cost of timber and consumables, but not the time involved in turning, sanding and finishing items to a merchantable standard, which are aesthetically pleasing, stand out from the rest, and could be bought perhaps as Christmas or Birthday presents.

To do it as a paying concern, as well as the time, materials and consumables, you must structure in the time and costs involved in marketing them – a table at a craft fair, market stall, travelling time and costs. When it comes to finishes, if they’re say salad bowls, they must be food-safe, and if toys, must be toy-safe. You will also incur such costs as Public Liability Insurance.

The national adult minimum wage in 2024 is £11.44 per hour (10% higher than last year), which equates to £457.60 per 40-hour week. However much you enjoy turning, from a financial perspective, are you prepared to put in all the time and effort needed, yet earn less than the wage that someone who collects up the trolleys in Tesco’s car park gets paid?

Price wise, to take pens for example, let’s assume you can turn and finish one in half an hour, and let’s say £6.00 for your time, (National Minimum Wage), plus a pen blank, a pen kit, and consumables – perhaps another £5.00. A Google search on ‘hand-turned pens’ will bring up page upon page of pens at low prices, which look very presentable, many of which can be laser-engraved to your wishes, in a laser engraved box, from £12.00 upwards. Etsy is awash with them. Sure, there are more expensive ones, but how many people will pay say £35+ for a pen at a craft fair is debatable. Not many would be my guess. If you turn a small fruit bowl or whatever, which you might have asked £25 for in 2014, Taking account of inflation, you’d now need to ask £37.50. Will the market stand that? If you want to stand out and differentiate your turnings, you may get into texturing, piercing and colouring. Extra time, plus equipment such as a compressor, air brush, texturing tools.

In a nearby town there’s a gallery at which the wares of local artists are displayed. Pictures, limited edition prints, ceramics, glassware, knitwear, silk scarves, hand-made greetings cards, and some wood-turned item. It has a nice café, and occasional exhibitions, so we visit it from time to time. The wood-turned items are from sustainable timber, the turner has is CV on display, and business cards, all nicely done. An item on sale at £50, will include VAT, so the base price would be approx. £42.00. The gallery takes 40% (£16.80) leaving £25.20 for the turner for his time, materials, consumables. Sadly, the items on display aren’t turned to a particularly good standard – sanding marks, dimples and pips in the base of bowls, uneven wall thickness, uneven transition of curves, not very aesthetically pleasing shapes, no 'wow' factor. None of it seems to sell, which must be very dispiriting.

Much depends on how we value our time, whether we enjoy craft fairs etc, and what we expect to gain at the 'bottom line'. These are just my observations based on 25 years as a member of a woodturning club in which - over the years - top notch competition-winning turners have had tables at craft fairs and other events, but it's some years since any have bothered. Just too much effort for too little return.

David.

 

[Cabinetman]

This may come across as frightfully negative, and maybe there are those who have, and continue to make a good living at it, and enjoy giving up time to have stalls at craft fairs etc, or to wait for the orders to come in on an auction site/website (then pack and post them). If it’s marginal extra income, just as there are those who enjoy having a table at a car boot sale, then fine, but don’t expect to make even the minimum living wage, when all costs and time are factored in. The 'opportunity cost' of such activities is the lost opportunity to do something else which would be more financially rewarding, but maybe less enjoyable or fulfilling. The enigma can be that as hobbyists, what are we going to do with all the stuff we turn - let it all pile up, or scale back an activity we enjoy so much?

What seems to happen with woodturning, (as with other crafts), is that initially, someone fancies it as a hobby, starting off with 'all the gear & no idea' - inexperienced, but full of enthusiasm. Over time, when they've turned enough little projects such as mushrooms from branch-wood or whatever, they gain experience and expand their ‘repertoire’, making pens, little bowls, bigger bowls, lidded boxes, clocks, bud vases, fruit, light pulls, Christmas baubles, garden dibbers, honey dippers, flour scoops, door wedges, salt & pepper grinders, small toys such as colourful spinning tops etc. Initially they give them as presents to friends, acquaintances, relatives, co-workers, all of whom are appreciative, but they only want so many pens and other ‘nick knacks’.

The enthusiastic hobbyist enjoys turning so much that items start to pile up and they need to do something with them, so they start thinking about craft fairs, market stalls, auction sites, a website etc, to sell their wares and at least cover their materials costs, so they can continue to enjoy the hobby. At best, from a pricing perspective, they’re only likely to recover the cost of timber and consumables, but not the time involved in turning, sanding and finishing items to a merchantable standard, which are aesthetically pleasing, stand out from the rest, and could be bought perhaps as Christmas or Birthday presents.

To do it as a paying concern, as well as the time, materials and consumables, you must structure in the time and costs involved in marketing them – a table at a craft fair, market stall, travelling time and costs. When it comes to finishes, if they’re say salad bowls, they must be food-safe, and if toys, must be toy-safe. You will also incur such costs as Public Liability Insurance.

The national adult minimum wage in 2024 is £11.44 per hour (10% higher than last year), which equates to £457.60 per 40-hour week. However much you enjoy turning, from a financial perspective, are you prepared to put in all the time and effort needed, yet earn less than the wage that someone who collects up the trolleys in Tesco’s car park gets paid?

Price wise, to take pens for example, let’s assume you can turn and finish one in half an hour, and let’s say £6.00 for your time, (National Minimum Wage), plus a pen blank, a pen kit, and consumables – perhaps another £5.00. A Google search on ‘hand-turned pens’ will bring up page upon page of pens at low prices, which look very presentable, many of which can be laser-engraved to your wishes, in a laser engraved box, from £12.00 upwards. Etsy is awash with them. Sure, there are more expensive ones, but how many people will pay say £35+ for a pen at a craft fair is debatable. Not many would be my guess. If you turn a small fruit bowl or whatever, which you might have asked £25 for in 2014, Taking account of inflation, you’d now need to ask £37.50. Will the market stand that? If you want to stand out and differentiate your turnings, you may get into texturing, piercing and colouring. Extra time, plus equipment such as a compressor, air brush, texturing tools.

In a nearby town there’s a gallery at which the wares of local artists are displayed. Pictures, limited edition prints, ceramics, glassware, knitwear, silk scarves, hand-made greetings cards, and some wood-turned item. It has a nice café, and occasional exhibitions, so we visit it from time to time. The wood-turned items are from sustainable timber, the turner has is CV on display, and business cards, all nicely done. An item on sale at £50, will include VAT, so the base price would be approx. £42.00. The gallery takes 40% (£16.80) leaving £25.20 for the turner for his time, materials, consumables. Sadly, the items on display aren’t turned to a particularly good standard – sanding marks, dimples and pips in the base of bowls, uneven wall thickness, uneven transition of curves, not very aesthetically pleasing shapes, no 'wow' factor. None of it seems to sell, which must be very dispiriting.

Much depends on how we value our time, whether we enjoy craft fairs etc, and what we expect to gain at the 'bottom line'. These are just my observations based on 25 years as a member of a woodturning club in which - over the years - top notch competition-winning turners have had tables at craft fairs and other events, but it's some years since any have bothered. Just too much effort for too little return.

David.

Depressingly true David, I have been on the other side of this at craft fairs and have always wondered at the stalls selling- or not selling turned items. The guys sit there expectantly and I can see they are good at turning but it’s all just more "stuff" which probably isn’t needed.

 

[akirk]

well said - there is no mass-market equation which works for the wood hobbiest - the only way to make money is to go very upmarket, and even then it is not as profitable as it should be. We have a client who was a top end cabinet maker - restorer of old furniture - maker of beautiful new furniture - he now works for a company making kitchens! I commissioned a desk from him some years ago - cost me about £6k - nearly half of that was the wood cost at the yard - beautiful piece, but just not easy to make money...

the simple answer in all of this though is that if you are creative you can shift most wood turning output for the cost of consumables and a bit more - allowing you to have a much cheaper hobby and put some money towards the next tool - it won't be a career, but a hobby that costs very little is still an attractive proposition - compare it to the costs of sailing or riding!