Social media is so important these days, I would agree that getting your own website sorted is a priority & should be done regardless of what social media platforms you use, your right they can make changes at any time & for any reason they choose so not relying 100% on social media is always a good thing but I think most businesses need to have some sort of social media presence, that may or may not include facebook, depends where your customers hang out. Your customers are always going to be looking for reviews & recommendations as these help to build trust & social media is one place that customers can leave them for you. The results are gathered & displayed by other places such as Google my Business.
Self employment
- Thread starter Designer1
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Social media is so important these days, I would agree that getting your own website sorted is a priority & should be done regardless of what social media platforms you use, your right they can make changes at any time & for any reason they choose so not relying 100% on social media is always a good thing but I think most businesses need to have some sort of social media presence, that may or may not include facebook, depends where your customers hang out. Your customers are always going to be looking for reviews & recommendations as these help to build trust & social media is one place that customers can leave them for you. The results are gathered & displayed by other places such as Google my Business.
LBCarpentry
Established Member
If I may be blunt, you sound like you believe the world owes you a decent living doing the work you want to do, from day one.
I think you need to wake up and realise you don’t just suddenly start making kitchens because you like the idea and turn down anyone who won’t pay you £200 a day. You currently have nothing to offer, no portfolio & no reputation.
If you started making kitchens from day 1 without any business experience, production experience, contacts or knowledge, you’d be 10k down before you even thought about how you’d fit it.
When starting in this game you have to do those ****** cheap jobs and you will work for some terrible people. You’ll get ripped off at times & you’ll rip yourself off even more times. And you will work some crappy long hours for the same money believe me.
If you actually want to make a decent living then work for a big company and work your way up the ladder. The grass is not as green as you believe. Telling your mates down the pub you now charge £200 a day, whilst your accountants laughing in the background at your naivety.
I think you need to wake up and realise you don’t just suddenly start making kitchens because you like the idea and turn down anyone who won’t pay you £200 a day. You currently have nothing to offer, no portfolio & no reputation.
If you started making kitchens from day 1 without any business experience, production experience, contacts or knowledge, you’d be 10k down before you even thought about how you’d fit it.
When starting in this game you have to do those ****** cheap jobs and you will work for some terrible people. You’ll get ripped off at times & you’ll rip yourself off even more times. And you will work some crappy long hours for the same money believe me.
If you actually want to make a decent living then work for a big company and work your way up the ladder. The grass is not as green as you believe. Telling your mates down the pub you now charge £200 a day, whilst your accountants laughing in the background at your naivety.
Ollie78
Established Member
Just a quick problem with kitchens. A guy I know works for a large kitchen manufacturer.
It takes 8 minutes to make a full drawer unit.
These guys are shoving containers of mdf in one end of the line and kitchens fire out the other end.
Really the only way to compete with this is to go completely custom and high end where there is a market for real individual quality, where people appreciate design, materials and attention to detail.
Kitchens is very competetive and also not the best fun, I have fitted many and wouldn`t mind if I don`t do another really.
Ollie
It takes 8 minutes to make a full drawer unit.
These guys are shoving containers of mdf in one end of the line and kitchens fire out the other end.
Really the only way to compete with this is to go completely custom and high end where there is a market for real individual quality, where people appreciate design, materials and attention to detail.
Kitchens is very competetive and also not the best fun, I have fitted many and wouldn`t mind if I don`t do another really.
Ollie
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
Every time I look at this thread I feel compelled to add my 2p worth - so hear goes.
High end kitchens represent a small market. Mass market suppliers will be able to manufacture cabinets and doors at a fraction of what it will cost you.
Existing companies at this end of the market understand that it is as much about delivering a customer experience (choice, status, feel good etc) as it is a kitchen.
Managing sales, marketing, finance, workshop equipment, material procurement, fitters etc is as important as finish - which needs to be high quality to get word of mouth referrals. Set up and working capital will not be trivial!
With woodworking skills and (I assume) a workshop with some kit, I would be inclined to look towards those jobs which need to be custom made. Sheds don't sell (for instance) work on listed buildings and renovation, antique furniture restoration, wood panelling, making odd door sizes, copying customer furniture and fittings etc.
Finally you have a choice given that it will take time to build a viable customer base - fill in the gaps as you develop the business through subcontract work, or accept that some of the work you take on will be low value hard work at the bottom end of the market.
Now may be a good time to make the move to self employment as I get the impression that many trades are in very high demand at present. Two builders I know fairly well have work booked up for much of the next year - any new work is priced high.
High end kitchens represent a small market. Mass market suppliers will be able to manufacture cabinets and doors at a fraction of what it will cost you.
Existing companies at this end of the market understand that it is as much about delivering a customer experience (choice, status, feel good etc) as it is a kitchen.
Managing sales, marketing, finance, workshop equipment, material procurement, fitters etc is as important as finish - which needs to be high quality to get word of mouth referrals. Set up and working capital will not be trivial!
With woodworking skills and (I assume) a workshop with some kit, I would be inclined to look towards those jobs which need to be custom made. Sheds don't sell (for instance) work on listed buildings and renovation, antique furniture restoration, wood panelling, making odd door sizes, copying customer furniture and fittings etc.
Finally you have a choice given that it will take time to build a viable customer base - fill in the gaps as you develop the business through subcontract work, or accept that some of the work you take on will be low value hard work at the bottom end of the market.
Now may be a good time to make the move to self employment as I get the impression that many trades are in very high demand at present. Two builders I know fairly well have work booked up for much of the next year - any new work is priced high.
I spent most of my life as an engineer and was very aware, having worked for a big American based technology company for most of that time, that many engineers are great at thinking and implementing and hopeless with process, financial planning and general management.
When we started our own business I was determined to be different.
We had to start getting whatever business we could and this allowed me to gain experience (in an industry that I didn't have a background) and build customer credibility while, all the time, focusing upon customer satisfaction (and not just playing at it).
Over several months my confidence grew and so did my credibility. This allowed me to gradually raise my prices while retaining customers already secured and newer ones through careful, cost controlled advertising. Coming across confidently, credibly and with a certain amount of gravitas often draws a customer in and, provided you deliver what you sell, you will be invited back again and again, within reason, irrespective of the price that you charge. Polite, attentive, and interested in the customer in their environment was massive for closing leads.
We didn't need to advertise heavily. In fact, our advertising was about as light as we could get away with - just enough, in the right places, carefully targeted toward the demographic that we wanted to attract. We found that half page adds in the local A5 magazines worked well together with a local Facebook page to which we regularly contributed.
This is all very well but without proper financial control, you can have as much charisma and gravitas as you like, but you risk loosing money. It's really important to have a tight reign over the money and to invest proper time doing it. By this, you need to buy the right products at the right prices and add value to the product which you recover by way of appropriate end prices. Done well, your margins can be higher than your competitors. All of the time you need to know what your marketing channels have individually contributed to your bottom line and be prepared to chop and change them so as to maximise the return.
If you do a lot of work over a big area you need to make your travel efficient so as to reduce travel cost and minimise dead time on the road so even route planning is important!
You also need to aware of taxation and factor this in at every step. As an example, aside from what you can recover, VAT money is not yours, it belongs to HMRC and it's best to not see it as part of your working capital short term. Set it aside and be prepared to pay it on time. Equally, do your best to not incur a profit. Profits attract tax. Put your profits into pension funds, anywhere but in the bank account at HMRC!
We ran our business for five years, quite successfully, and then hung up our boots and retired. The pension pots that we used to offset Corporation tax are now helping us very nicely.
Perhaps we were lucky. I prefer to believe that we invested our time and our money wisely and reaped the rewards. I am also very pleased that, as an engineer, my business skills were proven to be atypical.
When we started our own business I was determined to be different.
We had to start getting whatever business we could and this allowed me to gain experience (in an industry that I didn't have a background) and build customer credibility while, all the time, focusing upon customer satisfaction (and not just playing at it).
Over several months my confidence grew and so did my credibility. This allowed me to gradually raise my prices while retaining customers already secured and newer ones through careful, cost controlled advertising. Coming across confidently, credibly and with a certain amount of gravitas often draws a customer in and, provided you deliver what you sell, you will be invited back again and again, within reason, irrespective of the price that you charge. Polite, attentive, and interested in the customer in their environment was massive for closing leads.
We didn't need to advertise heavily. In fact, our advertising was about as light as we could get away with - just enough, in the right places, carefully targeted toward the demographic that we wanted to attract. We found that half page adds in the local A5 magazines worked well together with a local Facebook page to which we regularly contributed.
This is all very well but without proper financial control, you can have as much charisma and gravitas as you like, but you risk loosing money. It's really important to have a tight reign over the money and to invest proper time doing it. By this, you need to buy the right products at the right prices and add value to the product which you recover by way of appropriate end prices. Done well, your margins can be higher than your competitors. All of the time you need to know what your marketing channels have individually contributed to your bottom line and be prepared to chop and change them so as to maximise the return.
If you do a lot of work over a big area you need to make your travel efficient so as to reduce travel cost and minimise dead time on the road so even route planning is important!
You also need to aware of taxation and factor this in at every step. As an example, aside from what you can recover, VAT money is not yours, it belongs to HMRC and it's best to not see it as part of your working capital short term. Set it aside and be prepared to pay it on time. Equally, do your best to not incur a profit. Profits attract tax. Put your profits into pension funds, anywhere but in the bank account at HMRC!
We ran our business for five years, quite successfully, and then hung up our boots and retired. The pension pots that we used to offset Corporation tax are now helping us very nicely.
Perhaps we were lucky. I prefer to believe that we invested our time and our money wisely and reaped the rewards. I am also very pleased that, as an engineer, my business skills were proven to be atypical.
Out of interest, what were you doing?
Self confidence definately sways customers. A guy i subcontracted to was literally full of it, and very successful. For some reason even when he was letting people down and screwing them over he still got away with it and just seems to get more work!
I dont have that
I am around 3 years into specialising with designing, making and installing built in units/made to measure cabinets. From my experience it is not easy. I've worked as a carpenter for 9 years so far and come to the realization it's very difficult to make money and come across 'reasonable' to the majority of the potential clients out there with a few exceptions.
You'll need a space to work, make and store everything which sets a big overhead. You will need to invest in some specialist tools such as a domino or lamello machine as a starter as you won't get away with just screwing material together such as MFC panels.
You may out source the cutting and will need to spend hours on a drawing in order to get the sizes for your cutting list unless you're prepared to buy the stock, run it down to size and edge band it yourself if needed.
You'll have to discuss and spend your time on an evening talking through the options with the client, suggesting ideas and putting together a rough sketch to illustrate what you are quoting for before you even confirm and agreed to proceed with the client. The majority of this time is difficult to charge for and often ends up wasted if you do not get a reply or told you're too expensive.
So once you factor these facts into account and look about scaling up to take on kitchens or larger projects. They're so many aspects to consider and take into account BEFORE you see a profit. Plus if you size up you'll need staff and a workshop and a larger accounting firm to handle your payroll....it's not easy and probably isn't worth the stress.
I mean that's my opinion and experience so far. I can't see why people want to go into it so deep when it would seem to be unbearably stressful and the jobs hard enough as it is.
You'll need a space to work, make and store everything which sets a big overhead. You will need to invest in some specialist tools such as a domino or lamello machine as a starter as you won't get away with just screwing material together such as MFC panels.
You may out source the cutting and will need to spend hours on a drawing in order to get the sizes for your cutting list unless you're prepared to buy the stock, run it down to size and edge band it yourself if needed.
You'll have to discuss and spend your time on an evening talking through the options with the client, suggesting ideas and putting together a rough sketch to illustrate what you are quoting for before you even confirm and agreed to proceed with the client. The majority of this time is difficult to charge for and often ends up wasted if you do not get a reply or told you're too expensive.
So once you factor these facts into account and look about scaling up to take on kitchens or larger projects. They're so many aspects to consider and take into account BEFORE you see a profit. Plus if you size up you'll need staff and a workshop and a larger accounting firm to handle your payroll....it's not easy and probably isn't worth the stress.
I mean that's my opinion and experience so far. I can't see why people want to go into it so deep when it would seem to be unbearably stressful and the jobs hard enough as it is.
Keith 66
Established Member
Couple more points, A few years back a friend was looking to set up a new business, full of ideas & enthusiasm, got quite far advanced to the point of taking on a shop that she had found in just the right location. At the time she was doing craft classes, one of her pupils listened to her talking about it all & promptly nicked the idea & the premises she was talking about. Utterly blew her out of the water.
If you have a good idea keep schtum until you have it in the bag.
Also at least three guys i know shagged their secretaries & lost their business when the wife found out!
If you have a good idea keep schtum until you have it in the bag.
Also at least three guys i know shagged their secretaries & lost their business when the wife found out!
So designer1 needs to factor in a secretarys wages too
Good point above about who you talk to about ideas, unfortunately a lot of people are out for themselves.... and if you want or need something doing, try not to involve friends/ family etc, find a company and pay. It'll get done in a reasonable timeframe and you wont risk falling out with friends / family..... even if you do people favours, it doesnt mean you will be their priority ( trust me )
Peri
Established Member
Yes it is frustrating when someone says "but IKEA only charge £250 per wardrobe you want £1000". Go to IKEA then
I definitely don't do carpentry as a business, (it's my weekend hobby away from the metal I work with all week), but if I make something that I consider good enough, I'll sell it.
I've had a fair few people ask me to make them stuff, and as I don't really like saying 'No', my standard reply is "Of course, but see what you can buy something similar for in Ikea, then price up the lumber, add on 10 or 20 hours of my labour and see if you'd still like me to do it".
I've never had anyone get back to me! haha
johnnyb
Established Member
and if you don't specialise you struggle making stuff quickly enough to enter profit. I think its impossible to enter the market mainstream as a woodworker. you need to cultivate wealthy clientele. I do do other things that " normal" people would have(electric plumbing door and frames) but mdf furniture needs someone fashionable with money dare I say probably not to old who will want what you do more than say Hammonds.
I'll be honest I don't like slab/ shaker mdf furniture. I especially don't like the stuff that's cut and screwed on site usually using fluffy mdf. I like details and that means solid
I'll be honest I don't like slab/ shaker mdf furniture. I especially don't like the stuff that's cut and screwed on site usually using fluffy mdf. I like details and that means solid
Doug71
Established Member
Specialise or not, I never know which is best?
I do all aspects of joinery, making windows, hanging doors, built in cabinets etc. It's a hassle because I can't keep a standard stock or really streamline how I do things but at least I have lots of options.
If you specialise you can become really efficient at things but that is all you do, for things like built ins you probably won't get much repeat custom.
I have found that customers sometimes get you in to do a small job to kind of check you out before they let you loose on something major.
Regarding kitchens there are some guys locally who have a successful kitchen business but they don't actually make anything! They have a good supplier of quality carcasses and a good supplier of doors/frames, both do stuff in bespoke sizes (any really awkward bits I get the job
). They do some really nice stuff but they are just really designers and fitters, it works well though, you would need a really good set up to compete with the likes of them.
Regarding building a brand if you are just a one man band I don't think it's that important. There are a few round here with nicely sign written vans, logoed hoodies etc but wouldn't know which end of a chisel to hold, it's better if your quality of work makes you stand out.
I do all aspects of joinery, making windows, hanging doors, built in cabinets etc. It's a hassle because I can't keep a standard stock or really streamline how I do things but at least I have lots of options.
If you specialise you can become really efficient at things but that is all you do, for things like built ins you probably won't get much repeat custom.
I have found that customers sometimes get you in to do a small job to kind of check you out before they let you loose on something major.
Regarding kitchens there are some guys locally who have a successful kitchen business but they don't actually make anything! They have a good supplier of quality carcasses and a good supplier of doors/frames, both do stuff in bespoke sizes (any really awkward bits I get the job
). They do some really nice stuff but they are just really designers and fitters, it works well though, you would need a really good set up to compete with the likes of them.Regarding building a brand if you are just a one man band I don't think it's that important. There are a few round here with nicely sign written vans, logoed hoodies etc but wouldn't know which end of a chisel to hold, it's better if your quality of work makes you stand out.
This is an interesting thread with a good range of advice for somebody in Designer 1's position.
Designer 1, I'd be interested to know a bit more about you and your circumstances. Have you been to college to learn a trade or served part or all of an apprenticeship ? What experience do you have in a woodworking trade ?
Do you have a workshop, do you have any woodworking machinery other than power tools.
Do you live at home, do you have a family to support ?
The reason I ask is, I wonder whether sefl employment is the best route for at this stage in your career. I've been self employed almost all of my working life and I'm 60 now. (I did have to get a proper job once upon a time to get a mortgage and hated every minute of it.
)
When I came out of school I went to college for three years, then I did an apprenticeship which put me in good stead. I have managed to make a living and enjoyed the work but looking back I wish I had experienced more areas of the industry. Better still travelled with the skills I had and then picked up many more on my way round the world. Working on yachts, in banks or in palaces, those super high end jobs do exist and I wish I had been a bit more ambitious as a younger man and broadened my horizons.
If I were 26 today and could find a good company that produced excellent work and would pay me £174.00 a week I'd be knocking on their door on Monday morning trying to convince them to take me on.
Perhaps you already have a mortgage or other commitments but if there's a chance you can further your education and get paid (however little) for doing it, it will benefit you in the long run.
Advice from an old man.
No charge.
Designer 1, I'd be interested to know a bit more about you and your circumstances. Have you been to college to learn a trade or served part or all of an apprenticeship ? What experience do you have in a woodworking trade ?
Do you have a workshop, do you have any woodworking machinery other than power tools.
Do you live at home, do you have a family to support ?
The reason I ask is, I wonder whether sefl employment is the best route for at this stage in your career. I've been self employed almost all of my working life and I'm 60 now. (I did have to get a proper job once upon a time to get a mortgage and hated every minute of it.
)When I came out of school I went to college for three years, then I did an apprenticeship which put me in good stead. I have managed to make a living and enjoyed the work but looking back I wish I had experienced more areas of the industry. Better still travelled with the skills I had and then picked up many more on my way round the world. Working on yachts, in banks or in palaces, those super high end jobs do exist and I wish I had been a bit more ambitious as a younger man and broadened my horizons.
If I were 26 today and could find a good company that produced excellent work and would pay me £174.00 a week I'd be knocking on their door on Monday morning trying to convince them to take me on.
Perhaps you already have a mortgage or other commitments but if there's a chance you can further your education and get paid (however little) for doing it, it will benefit you in the long run.
Advice from an old man.
No charge.
Richard_C
Established Member
I've been self employed - sole trader not limited company - for over 15 years. Very different field - HR. Company I worked for got merged, choice of staying or going with a good deal so I went. Never had to advertise, all came by word of mouth, now almost 70 and 'retired' except that some clients keep asking me to do things to get them out of various holes. Can't travel much at the moment so I say yes.
Although its a very different field, some general things might help:
Make ..... in a workshop to a design
Do things whn I am told
(finish on time every day?)
Design things
Order materials
++++
Now sit quietly somewhere comfortable and go down your list and say "I enjoy that bit and would like to do more" or "I really don't like that much and want to do less" or even "I hate that bit ...."
Now add to the list what you might have to do if self employed. It would certainly have:
Meet customers and be nice to all of them
Prepare estimates
Do my accounts
Do my tax/VAT returns
Chase unpaid invoices
Arrange bank loans
Deal with complaints
Maintain my own tools and machines
Plan my time
++++++
What do you like doing, what do you dislike? No point making £££ but hating every minute.
And finally: when I led an HR team I always had someone to discuss things with - even if it was just to confirm that my thinking was straight. We've got a problem with ....I plan to....what do you think? Oh, hadn't thought of that, maybe we should ....
When you are on your own, you are on your own. All the decisions fall to you, if you get in a hole you have to get yourself out of it. You can't phone the boss and say "customer won't accept it what should I do" - you have to sort it out.
I'm not saying don't go self employed but work out why you are doing it. Its not for everyone.
Although its a very different field, some general things might help:
- Even if you get work on day 1, it will be a while before you get paid. I hate owing money, had some roofing work done, guy gave me a bill and rang me when he got home to say thanks for the BACS payment which arrived before he got there. But thats me, many aren't like that. If you do work via estate agents on rentals they can take months to pay up, a plumber I know refuses to do that any more, but even with private customers you have to do the work, finish it and wait a bit. So make sure you have working capital or enough personal savinge to get you through.
- There is no safety net - no SSP or sick pay, no pension contributions, no life cover unless you pay for it, no holiday pay, if it ends badly you might get UC but the unemployment benefits are minimal. Again think "if I couldn't work for xxx days/weeks how would I cope?"
- Work comes and goes - it doesn't bother me because I only aimed to work 50-60% of full time but most don't have that luxury. But what overheads do you have? Mine is just a laptop which I own, internet connection and a mobile phone (used to have a fax machine too, remember those?) and PI insurance through my professional body. If I'm not working no real money is going out. I do my own accounts. But, if you have loans for kit, pay an accountant, rent space, pay liability insurance, and so on the money goes out whether you are working or not. Allow for that in your planning.
- What is the market like - what can you offer? In HR, recruitment and day to day stuff is ten-a-penny; I don't do that - I have a lot of knowledge on pay and benefits and am good with numbers and reports so have done a lot for companies that are re-organising or merging. I am old and look wise even if I'm not, so help with disciplinary/grivance stuff with very senior employees. You can't ask your HR Officer to handle a dismissal of a Director, so they get me in. So I have a niche - 2 niches - which is fine. You can't compete with the mass market stuff - what can you offer and why will they come to you?
- Most of my work can be done at home - all of it now because people prefer remote meetings with covid - but on the occasions I do travel its a drain on time resources. Assuming you want to work locally, look around you. Here in the South Cambridge villages (where I couldn't afford to buy now - could just 26 years ago) lots of people are having work done, fancy extensions, decorators vans, lots of Teslas/Mercs etc on drives. Yes -lots will want and be able to pay for high end work. Drive round some areas in East Anglia, even not far away, quite the opposite. So does it look like there is a market near you, and how would you get started in it?
- Think about what portion of your time is chargeable. You will do quotes and estimates, visits and so on from which no work results, you will have to maintain your workshop and tools, you will have to source the right timber, etc. You will have fallow periods. Maybe 2/3 of your work time will be chargeable. Maybe 4/5. Hazard a guess - but it won't be 100%.
Make ..... in a workshop to a design
Do things whn I am told
(finish on time every day?)
Design things
Order materials
++++
Now sit quietly somewhere comfortable and go down your list and say "I enjoy that bit and would like to do more" or "I really don't like that much and want to do less" or even "I hate that bit ...."
Now add to the list what you might have to do if self employed. It would certainly have:
Meet customers and be nice to all of them
Prepare estimates
Do my accounts
Do my tax/VAT returns
Chase unpaid invoices
Arrange bank loans
Deal with complaints
Maintain my own tools and machines
Plan my time
++++++
What do you like doing, what do you dislike? No point making £££ but hating every minute.
And finally: when I led an HR team I always had someone to discuss things with - even if it was just to confirm that my thinking was straight. We've got a problem with ....I plan to....what do you think? Oh, hadn't thought of that, maybe we should ....
When you are on your own, you are on your own. All the decisions fall to you, if you get in a hole you have to get yourself out of it. You can't phone the boss and say "customer won't accept it what should I do" - you have to sort it out.
I'm not saying don't go self employed but work out why you are doing it. Its not for everyone.
Some great comments and advice.
A very useful thread! A lot of people dont see the downsides to being self employed and sometimes you'll be amazed at what some customers expect when discussing money.
If you get the 'how much?' bit, you have to remind them that you have tens of thousands of pounds of kit, 25 years of experience and lots of time spent 'running' the business as well as the actual work..... suddenly that hourly rate seems reasonable!!
If you are doing any bigger jobs, get materials money either up front or when the stuff arrives. I got caught on a kitchen ( supply and fit ) and when i billed, the woman didntbrespond. After a couple of reminders a phone call revealed that she was trying to get a loan!! Meanwhile i had to pay 3k for her kitchen ( many years ago )
I now get the materials up front on anything over 500/ 600 quid. If they wont do it, you dont want to work for them anyway
A very useful thread! A lot of people dont see the downsides to being self employed and sometimes you'll be amazed at what some customers expect when discussing money.
If you get the 'how much?' bit, you have to remind them that you have tens of thousands of pounds of kit, 25 years of experience and lots of time spent 'running' the business as well as the actual work..... suddenly that hourly rate seems reasonable!!
If you are doing any bigger jobs, get materials money either up front or when the stuff arrives. I got caught on a kitchen ( supply and fit ) and when i billed, the woman didntbrespond. After a couple of reminders a phone call revealed that she was trying to get a loan!! Meanwhile i had to pay 3k for her kitchen ( many years ago )
I now get the materials up front on anything over 500/ 600 quid. If they wont do it, you dont want to work for them anyway
doctor Bob
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I have had a moderately successful kitchen business for nearly 20 years, I worked for 5 years previously for a high end kitchen maker.
I made so many mistakes even though I had 5 years of experience, however the 5 years gave me the ability to work quickly and efficently.
Just remember a wardrobe may be £2000 a kitchen up to £50k easily, clients may let you get away with poorer work at the £2k range at £50k it need to be pretty good.
However, my advice is always to give it a go and see how it goes, kitchens are a bit of a nightmare at present with shortages of hardware and appliances.
I made so many mistakes even though I had 5 years of experience, however the 5 years gave me the ability to work quickly and efficently.
Just remember a wardrobe may be £2000 a kitchen up to £50k easily, clients may let you get away with poorer work at the £2k range at £50k it need to be pretty good.
However, my advice is always to give it a go and see how it goes, kitchens are a bit of a nightmare at present with shortages of hardware and appliances.
Jameshow
Established Member
Richard_C
Established Member
Thats fair enough. I speak as a customer (I'm on this forum as a keen amateur woodwroker, not doing it for a living). Part of our house spend this year was a new oil boiler - original was 35 years old. That, the roof and some patio doors all part of the plan to get house in shape for the next 10 or so years by which time I will be less able to deal with maintenance.
Small family firm, only 2 of them plus wife p/t in the office, mainly servicing in winter and replacements in summer. No way could they risk the upfront cost of a top-end very specific boiler if the customer changed their mind or renaged - I was happy to pay upfront knowing that they don't get paid the balance/make a profit until they actually do the job.
They were a little embarassed to ask for the money so early, explaining that the lead time for boilers was silly long this year so they had to put a confirmed order in much earlier than their usual 3-4 weeks. Now - if someone like British Gas asked me for money upfront for a standard bolier I might think twice. They should have the capital.
With silly lead times and very erratic shortages you can't really start anything until you have got all the materials in. Customer won't be impressed if you rip out a kitchen then say sorry, 8 week wait for the new sink or tap. Our oil boiler fitters (we were having new pump, water tank, TRVs and replacing old gate valves with 1/4 turn balls) actually came the week before, unloaded the new boiler and went round putting all the new parts in the right places - they are wise enough not to start something they can't finish.
If you make bespoke furniture and fit it, that's something you can do without other trades. If you do kitchens you will need to do the whole job - electrics, maybe a bit of gas, plumbing, flooring, tiles and maybe some plastering. No one can do all of that, so you need a network of good specialists who can come and do their bit (or be big enough to employ all the trades). You reputation depends on them being there when they should be and doing a good job. Add project management to the list of things to worry about.
Back to the original post though, if you take on big jobs from the outset with no reputation, will a customer be happy to shell out for materials upfront? If not, how much risk are you prepared to take?
(Dr Bob - I know where Matching Green is - do you have a Tye that also matches?)
I was self employed for 25 years in building and 20 years employed by big builders.. I love the advice given on this forum on these subjects. It is varied, interesting and well balanced. I have nothing to add. Like most things self employment is good, it is bad, it is an adventure. It is like sailing, good weather bad weather, but you either want to be out there ,or you don't. No two journeys are the same.
Anything designed and made bespoke is seen as a luxury item that only the wealthy can afford - except, for some reason, bespoke furniture!
Are woodworkers the worlds worst businessmen?
On RatedPeople, I've often seen leads for 3.6m wardrobes, with mirrored doors, drawers and interior lighting for less than £1000 - and the lead has been bought!
My advice for the OP would be to find the right sort of clients - people that want beautifully made and finished furniture and are happy to pay for it.
Are woodworkers the worlds worst businessmen?
On RatedPeople, I've often seen leads for 3.6m wardrobes, with mirrored doors, drawers and interior lighting for less than £1000 - and the lead has been bought!
My advice for the OP would be to find the right sort of clients - people that want beautifully made and finished furniture and are happy to pay for it.
