scary sharp ?

[woodbloke]

If you start with the jig you will always need it. But if you start free hand you will never need it. But if you are impatient and need an edge quickly you could get a jig.

I disagree. Using a jig, as mentioned in an other thread, gives accuracy and repeatability, 'specially if you use different bevels like a honed bevel and a 2deg higher micro-bevel, which is very difficult to achieve freehand.
I used to sharpen freehand as well 'cos I'm an ex-woodwork teacher and I used to be able to sharpen a complete set of 'shop chisels (80 :shock: ) in less than an hour - Rob

 

[crazylilting]

Agreed however you are talking about a very specific bevel. Not just every day use for most woodworking applications. And like i said i'm no expert. No need to split hairs...

 

[head clansman]

Hi all

i agree with rob here , i used oil stones for nearly forty years still have them , don't use them any more , use scary sharpening once with a jig and have never use my Ollie's since , there is no way you'll get any cutting edge as sharp doing it by hand , perfection every time , why wait till you hand are old and shaky . hc

 

[Doctor]

I feel it's time to set the record straight, Mr Grimsdale has been in solitary confinement in broadmoor mental institution since 1976, he has not been allowed access to any sharp objects since 1976 and all this sharpening talk he participates in is simple a way of aleviating his pent up sexual tension.
It is also the reason he appears to be stuck in the 70's.

 

[MikeG.]

I joined after the events you guys are referring to, but it did strike me that the earlier suggestion of a primary bevel, a secondary bevel and then a final bevel isn't going to be a very long way away from a curved bevel.

Mike

 

[Night Train]

What's this 'scary sharp' you talk of?

There is sharp enough to shave with for day to day work and sharp enough to split a hair for fine work.

I achieve both on a Tormek whetstone and leather wheel or 6000 grit waterstone and leather strop.

I remember, in my youth, carpenters sharpening chisels with a drop of oil on the door step. :wink:

 

[Lord Nibbo]

What's this 'scary sharp' you talk of?

There is sharp enough to shave with for day to day work and sharp enough to split a hair for fine work.

I achieve both on a Tormek whetstone and leather wheel or 6000 grit waterstone and leather strop.

I remember, in my youth, carpenters sharpening chisels with a drop of oil on the door step. :wink:

It's not so much of how sharp a tool blade is, but more of a simplistic use of a sheet of glass with a fine abrasive sheet sheet taped or stuck to the glass. In other words a very cheap but effective way to sharpen. A gooogle should show you quite a few ideas of what is meant by "scary sharp method"

 

[JonnyD]

I feel it's time to set the record straight, Mr Grimsdale has been in solitary confinement in broadmoor mental institution since 1976, he has not been allowed access to any sharp objects since 1976 and all this sharpening talk he participates in is simple a way of aleviating his pent up sexual tension.
It is also the reason he appears to be stuck in the 70's.

Is he stuck in the 1970's or 1870's

 

[bugbear]

It takes practice and a very steady hand and you move the chisel in a figure 8 length wise across the stone.

Surely that concentrates the wear on the stone in the middle (since the side of the stone would never get used) ?

BugBear

 

[crazylilting]

No it doesn't as you sharpen other things on the stones as well. I suppose if your being daft and think that you would only sharpen one chisel on it and keep doing it over and over yes it would wear that way...

I'm sure if a master taught me to do it that way it would be ok. And besides you do flatten your stones once and a while. Perhaps a little reading on the subject wouldn't be such a bad idea. Sharpening is a vast subject that volumes of books have been written on.

To take a simple post and trying to correct it is like taking a verse out of the bible and twisting it to your own meaning.

After realizing that the scary sharp was a method instead of a statement of intent i did a google on it. There is even a utube video on the subject. However i didn't like his technique. When he turned the chisel over to flatten it it was in the jig so wasn't held flat. but it is a simple jig made out of a block of wood that will hold the blade at the right angle for the cutter you are working on and it is rubbed back and forth one micron paper of varying grades in a bath of baby oil.

Looks simple and effective, actually much easier then using a stone after seeing it in action. I think i will give it a go as well. but i think with flattening the back side and taking the bur down i would prefer the back of the blade to be flat to the paper. Unless this is some secret way of getting a sharper edge?

 

[bugbear]

No it doesn't as you sharpen other things on the stones as well. I suppose if your being daft and think that you would only sharpen one chisel on it and keep doing it over and over yes it would wear that way...

I'm sure if a master taught me to do it that way it would be ok. And besides you do flatten your stones once and a while. Perhaps a little reading on the subject wouldn't be such a bad idea. Sharpening is a vast subject that volumes of books have been written on.

To take a simple post and trying to correct it is like taking a verse out of the bible and twisting it to your own meaning.

After realizing that the scary sharp was a method instead of a statement of intent i did a google on it. There is even a utube video on the subject. However i didn't like his technique. When he turned the chisel over to flatten it it was in the jig so wasn't held flat. but it is a simple jig made out of a block of wood that will hold the blade at the right angle for the cutter you are working on and it is rubbed back and forth one micron paper of varying grades in a bath of baby oil.

Looks simple and effective, actually much easier then using a stone after seeing it in action. I think i will give it a go as well. but i think with flattening the back side and taking the bur down i would prefer the back of the blade to be flat to the paper. Unless this is some secret way of getting a sharper edge?

guessing from the context, that sounds like Brent Beach. If that's the case. he's applying a deliberate back bevel to a plane blade to get a higher EP in a BD plane.

More (and I mean lots more) info here:

http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/sharpen.html

BugBear

 

[yetloh]

The trouble with so called scary sharp is that it is a method but the name given implies a level of effectiveness; I find it hard to believe it can live up to the name. I'll stick to my waterstones up to 16000 grit thanks; now that IS sharp although not all steels are up to it.

Jim

 

[MikeG.]

Jim,

try it!

As I said, I spent 20 years thinking I knew how to sharpen tools........but a few minutes with a bit of glass and sandpaper and you get a whole new idea for the meaning of sharp. It isn't criticising another method to say that a particular one is good.......I'm sure that both waterstones and oilstones can produce excellent results.

So, give it a go! Once you've given it a try, then tell us what the trouble with the method is......

Mike

 

[bugbear]

The trouble with so called scary sharp is that it is a method but the name given implies a level of effectiveness; I find it hard to believe it can live up to the name.

I guess "scary" varies from person to person.

The original write up was heavily tongue in cheek, and rather elegantly expressed.

Here it is, from 1995

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.wood ... e6a3?hl=en

BugBear

 

[crazylilting]

Thanks bugbear a great read, very funny too! Defiantly going to give it a go. I also agree with yetloh that not all chisels are up to the task. If i remember the OP (original poster) mentioned having marple chisels. While they are a good chisel they are not the best so how sharp is sharp enough?

I think they are great for an all purpose chisel that aren't to costly, i think £40 pounds for a set of them. But for very fine work there are better chisels that will hold a better edge. But i wouldn't be using them for the things i use my marples on.

 

[Benchwayze]

I think you would be better off with an old oilstone and sharpen freehand using the rounded bevel method. :lol:

John

Ahhh.... A friend of Mr. G?

I won't disagree, but avoiding a rounded-over edge has always served me well. Or maybe I just can't see the difference between a rounded bevel and a rounded-over bevel.

As to the original query, it just takes practice I fear. Oilstone or water stone. Take your choice. They are both messy and they both work. Waterstones I find do the job quicker.

As for splitting a hair, I hope any of my edge tools could do this. My problem would start with seeing and lining up the hair in the first place!

Incidentally, I saw lots of flat bevels in the 1960's, when 'scary-sharp' and float glass were never heard of in a woodshop. And to have a Stanley or Eclipse honing guide in your tool-box would have incurred ridicule and probably a fine!

I won't disparage the new ideas, but I do believe that 25mm MDF with a melamine surface is flatter than most samples of float glass. And a lot cheaper, size for size.

 

[MickCheese]

Why does this subject evoke such venom?

It is clear from the tone of the original poster that he did not know what the system was, he seems to want an easy, foolproof way of sharpening tools. The Scary sharp system is just that.

I am no expert, I have ground away inches of chisel steel with poor technique, the scary sharp method takes the guesswork and some of the hours of practice doing it with a oil stone out of sharpening. I get really good results each time.

Would you denigrate a person for using a router jig or a tenoning jig on a TS?

Now be nice to each other or I will get the ex teacher to throw the board duster at you!

Regards

Mick

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Mick,

I don't think it evokes venom as such, but on a forum such as this, you are bound to get contentious views, if only because of the age-range of the contributors.

It's similar to the handtools versus machines debate and the oft-voiced claims that hand-work is superior to machine work.

As George Gershwin said, 'It ain't Necessarily So'. It can be true when the handwork is undertaken by someone who knows how. But the reverse is also true. A good machinist is capable of excellent work too.

For instance, is a machine made dovetail inferior to a hand-cut one? It depends on the jig and how it cuts, and on how good the hand-tooled joint is.

The main gripe about machines, especially in the home workshop, was the fact that they allowed amateurs, with little skill in the use of handtools, to make good furniture. Some craftsmen, jealous of their skills, didn't like that concept. I feel that's where the divide began.

To return to sharpening.
Does a honing jig merely give consistent, rather than better results? It depends on who is doing the sharpening doesn't it?

I have used a guide, but I reverted to honing free-hand. My concession was to change to waterstones, when I realised they cut better than oilstones.

I never saw a blunt tool used in the shops I worked in, so whilst a honing-guide is great for beginners, it's still convenient to step over to a stone, give 'er a lick or two, then get back to cutting. Which is what our chisels and irons were made for.
:wink:

 

[woodbloke]

Hi Mick,

I don't think it evokes venom as such, but on a forum such as this, you are bound to get contentious views, if only because of the age-range of the contributors.

It's similar to the handtools versus machines debate and the oft-voiced claims that hand-work is superior to machine work.

As George Gershwin said, 'It ain't Necessarily So'. It can be true when the handwork is undertaken by someone who knows how. But the reverse is also true. A good machinist is capable of excellent work too.

For instance, is a machine made dovetail inferior to a hand-cut one? It depends on the jig and how it cuts, and on how good the hand-tooled joint is.

The main gripe about machines, especially in the home workshop, was the fact that they allowed amateurs, with little skill in the use of handtools, to make good furniture. Some craftsmen, jealous of their skills, didn't like that concept. I feel that's where the divide began.

To return to sharpening.
Does a honing jig merely give consistent, rather than better results? It depends on who is doing the sharpening doesn't it?

I have used a guide, but I reverted to honing free-hand. My concession was to change to waterstones, when I realised they cut better than oilstones.

I never saw a blunt tool used in the shops I worked in, so whilst a honing-guide is great for beginners, it's still convenient to step over to a stone, give 'er a lick or two, then get back to cutting. Which is what our chisels and irons were made for.
:wink:

John - some interesting points which are highly valid. A honing guide will give consistent and repeatable results, which is it's main benefit, even if you can sharpen freehand (which I used to do without a problem) However, as most of my chisels and plane irons are made from A2 steel I use a three bevel system now with a tiny micro-bevel at the cutting edge. Trying to hone two bevels (secondary and micro) at the edge becomes very hard, if not impossible to do freehand as you can never, ever quite pick up on the same bevel angles each time... this is the value of a guide. The extra time taken to fix the blade into my Eclipse is probably about a second as I use the 'bench hook' arrangement to set the projection distances.
I don't use the 'scary sharp' system, good though it is. The Kell system of guides and equipment as sold by Matthew at Workshop Heaven is definitely the place to go to IMO if you want to use this sharpening system - Rob

 

[bugbear]

I think the choice of abrasive (oil stone in their various flavours, waterstones, SiC paper, diamond) is independant of the hand vs jig debate.

(a minor and rare exception to this is that abrasives of a constant height are needed if your jig wheels don't run on the abrasive surface)

The choice of bevel design (to use a posh term) does seem to relate to hand versus jig though. They seem to be multiple aspects of the same thing.

BugBear