SawStop, stops on contact with skin is coming to Europe soon!

[Inspector]

Hasn't the creation of ideas, control by patents, monopolization of the market as a path to riches by any means always been the American way? I bet they use the laws that benefit the corporations and the rich to get out of paying taxes too but there are way too many that do that to be an issue. SawStop hasn't done anything illegal and yet they are constantly attacked for doing exactly what other woodworking companies would have done if they were smart enough themselves.

Fact remains they are the only game in town that is even remotely affordable. If people don't like it, don't want to get it or don't think it is needed, they don't have to buy them. The new corporate owners have decided to market the saws in some form or other outside North America and most of the potential buyers couldn't care less how the system came into being, just that they work. When the patents expire then there will be imitators that couldn't come up with their own ideas entering the market.

Pete

 

[Ed Weber]

Hasn't the creation of ideas, control by patents, monopolization of the market as a path to riches by any means always been the American way? I bet they use the laws that benefit the corporations and the rich to get out of paying taxes too but there are way too many that do that to be an issue. SawStop hasn't done anything illegal and yet they are constantly attacked for doing exactly what other woodworking companies would have done if they were smart enough themselves.

Fact remains they are the only game in town that is even remotely affordable. If people don't like it, don't want to get it or don't think it is needed, they don't have to buy them. The new corporate owners have decided to market the saws in some form or other outside North America and most of the potential buyers couldn't care less how the system came into being, just that they work. When the patents expire then there will be imitators that couldn't come up with their own ideas entering the market.

Pete

To a point but the original SawStop owner (a patent lawyer) did it on steroids.
At one time there were upwards of 100 patents. ANYTHING that was devised, however remotely related was deemed a threat and promptly sued.
Look at the Bosch Reaxx I cited. An explosive cartridge to activate the blade retracting below the table, easily reset and no blade damage but since it used an electrical impulse from blade contact, sue them.
I can't agree that they did what others would have done if they were smart enough.
They are the only game in town due to monopolistic practices and they've been lobbying the government to have their system mandated for years. Which is almost a certainty at this time.

IMO SawStop may be a good machine, may save some people from themselves but the Company has not been an honest broker. Their shtick is that they're all about safety but the facts are quite different.

I'm glad you're happy with yours

 

[Bingy man]

SawStop Dedicates Its Patent for Public Use, Boosting CPSC Rule to End Table Saw Amputations​

CORT-Statement-on-Table-Saws-Hearing.pdf(166.25 KB)
February 29, 2024
In the name of consumer safety, SawStop has just made an incredible gift to the public. I personally wish to commend Tooltechnic Systems (TTS), SawStop’s owner, for ensuring that no patents will prevent active injury mitigation (AIM) technologies on saw blades once a CPSC rule takes effect. TTS’s commitment is the nail in the coffin for industry’s belabored argument that SawStop’s patents are a key obstacle to selling saws with AIM.
Since joining CPSC, I have never witnessed such generosity by a manufacturer, and I hope TTS’s acts serve as a model for others. Instead of standing in the way of safety, manufacturers can and should help CPSC improve product safety across the board. Giving up intellectual property to help others is an honorable and admirable thing to do.
While the power tool industry’s lobbyists will likely pivot to new arguments against CPSC’s proposed rule, the public should remember that their grumblings about SawStop’s patent being an impediment are moot. Manufacturers have many ways to comply with CPSC’s proposed performance requirements for table saws, now including the use of previously patented technology.
As always, I am confident in American ingenuity. With robust competitive pressures and an active market featuring many sellers, consumers should look forward to safer table saws at limited additional cost.
Faithfully,
Your consumer advocate at the Consumer Product Safety Commission
Commissioner Richard L. Trumka Jr.


So what in short does this mean ,,also a little off topic but what does it take to design and produce this technology. Imagine the court cases if saw stop got it wrong and the system failed and digits were lost . I think it would only take 1 such incident to destroy their reputation . As such if they have been operating for 20 years and have saved multiple fingers / limbs etc why should they not make a good profit.

 

[Ed Weber]

This is a hollow gesture at best. This is ONE of many many patents. One which was about to expire, it means nothing.
In the name of consumer safety, they could have done it 20 years ago..
(Volvo and the three point seat belt comes to mind)

Also, yes they've saved many fingers over the last 20 years, compared to???
Thar's is the only tech out there, so there is nothing to compare it to. They claim they're the best thing since sliced bread but they're the only ones competing.

 

[Inspector]

To a point but the original SawStop owner (a patent lawyer) did it on steroids.
At one time there were upwards of 100 patents. ANYTHING that was devised, however remotely related was deemed a threat and promptly sued.
Look at the Bosch Reaxx I cited. An explosive cartridge to activate the blade retracting below the table, easily reset and no blade damage but since it used an electrical impulse from blade contact, sue them.
I can't agree that they did what others would have done if they were smart enough.
They are the only game in town due to monopolistic practices and they've been lobbying the government to have their system mandated for years. Which is almost a certainty at this time.

IMO SawStop may be a good machine, may save some people from themselves but the Company has not been an honest broker. Their shtick is that they're all about safety but the facts are quite different.

I'm glad you're happy with yours

The only reason Bosch made the Reaxx was because they lost a court case where an illegal alien worker (an employee) that was ripping flooring without a fence or guards lost a number of fingers. Not their fault the guy used the saw improperly but the court saw otherwise. If they had the safer saw in their lineup they would be protected because they made the effort and the saw's buyer didn't get one.

The Bosch use the same patented flesh detection technology that SawStop developed but instead of a spring pushing the brake into the blade and inertia taking the blade under the table, they used compressed air to drop the blade without stopping it. Their brake had two compressed air charges so could be used twice before replacement and the blades weren't wrecked. At first glance appears to be a better way but rumoured to have been slower overall with the potential for more teeth contacting before going under the table. Bosch lost because they copied the SawStop flesh detection system which measures the difference in impedance between flesh and wood. Once they lost their case they were stopped from selling in the US only. They sold them here in Canada (for a couple hundred bucks more than the equivalent SawStop) until supplies ran out. They were not a big seller and it took two or three years before they were no longer sold here. The brake cartridges are still available for those that bought them. Had Bosch been concerned with safety they would have continued selling them here with perhaps some improved models at lower costs. They didn't so I speculate their integrity is suspect and if they are sued again they can say they tried but SawStop is the bad guy for stopping them and they will get off.

I get that you have your views and will always see SawStop as evil. I wonder why all the table saw makers didn't band together and take SawStop to court to force them to release their patent for the good of woodworkers at a reasonable rate or for free?

Pete

 

[Ed Weber]

The only reason Bosch made the Reaxx was because they lost a court case where an illegal alien worker (an employee) that was ripping flooring without a fence or guards lost a number of fingers. Not their fault the guy used the saw improperly but the court saw otherwise. If they had the safer saw in their lineup they would be protected because they made the effort and the saw's buyer didn't get one.

The Bosch use the same patented flesh detection technology that SawStop developed but instead of a spring pushing the brake into the blade and inertia taking the blade under the table, they used compressed air to drop the blade without stopping it. Their brake had two compressed air charges so could be used twice before replacement and the blades weren't wrecked. At first glance appears to be a better way but rumoured to have been slower overall with the potential for more teeth contacting before going under the table. Bosch lost because they copied the SawStop flesh detection system which measures the difference in impedance between flesh and wood. Once they lost their case they were stopped from selling in the US only. They sold them here in Canada (for a couple hundred bucks more than the equivalent SawStop) until supplies ran out. They were not a big seller and it took two or three years before they were no longer sold here. The brake cartridges are still available for those that bought them. Had Bosch been concerned with safety they would have continued selling them here with perhaps some improved models at lower costs. They didn't so I speculate their integrity is suspect and if they are sued again they can say they tried but SawStop is the bad guy for stopping them and they will get off.

I get that you have your views and will always see SawStop as evil. I wonder why all the table saw makers didn't band together and take SawStop to court to force them to release their patent for the good of woodworkers at a reasonable rate or for free?

Pete

You said a lot of just factually incorrect things in your post.
The lawsuit you're talking about was with a Ryobi saw and the operator wasn't illegal, he wasn't trained on using the saw.
Mr. Gass (original SawStop owner) was the expert witness who came up with the theory that because the saw didn't have his AIM technology in it, then it was inherently dangerous. Since Ryobi was offered to buy a license from Saw Stop and declined to, along with everyone else, the saw was determined to be of defective design. Mr. Osorio won the case. https://studicata.com/case-briefs/case/osorio-v-one-world-technologies-inc/
This is what started the path toward the mandating of AIM in all new saws, a ridiculous legal theory.

Your second paragraph, I already mentioned but it's not a compressed air cartridge, think shotgun shell but a blank.

As far as SawStop goes, yes I think the company is evil and even if I wanted one, I wouldn't buy one on principle.

The PTI, which I linked to above, has been trying to work against SawStop for years. Legally, there is little they can do. https://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp

• At one time SawStop approached table saw manufacturers offering to license its patent portfolio technology, demanding an 8% royalty on the retail value of all table saws with the technology in addition to other terms that were onerous and not related to table saw safety.
• A table saw manufacturer that is not a member of PTI tried to license SawStop’s patent portfolio technology, but negotiations failed when the manufacturer alleged that SawStop demanded unreasonable royalties in excess of what was originally being sought. An additional manufacturer of table saws that also is not a member of PTI reported that the company closed a manufacturing facility in Canada because of SawStop and that efforts to negotiate with SawStop were unsuccessful, noting "They don't want to share...they don't want to share with anybody."

 

[TRITON]

You can't make this stuff up.

Well you can

In the name of consumer safety, they could have done it 20 years ago..
(Volvo and the three point seat belt comes to mind)

As far as im aware they did try to offer it to the other manufacturers for just that reason 20 or so years ago, but the other manufacturers turned it down.

Anyway, here's a lowdown, maybe dispel some myths.
I wonder though that those complaining would have also complained when the seatbelt was first introduced,
Or support a riving knife or other safety features, but are against this safety feature. To my mind on this i cannot fathom their reasons.

 

[John Brown]

I have no axe to grind one way or another, but I struggle to see how, if the device works by measuring impedance, they can analyse the data from a spent cartridge to ascertain that it was triggered by a real finger, as opposed to a hot dog or a pork chop, or indeed a lump of wet wood.

 

[Inspector]

You said a lot of just factually incorrect things in your post.
The lawsuit you're talking about was with a Ryobi saw and the operator wasn't illegal, he wasn't trained on using the saw.
Mr. Gass (original SawStop owner) was the expert witness who came up with the theory that because the saw didn't have his AIM technology in it, then it was inherently dangerous. Since Ryobi was offered to buy a license from Saw Stop and declined to, along with everyone else, the saw was determined to be of defective design. Mr. Osorio won the case. https://studicata.com/case-briefs/case/osorio-v-one-world-technologies-inc/
This is what started the path toward the mandating of AIM in all new saws, a ridiculous legal theory.

Your second paragraph, I already mentioned but it's not a compressed air cartridge, think shotgun shell but a blank.

As far as SawStop goes, yes I think the company is evil and even if I wanted one, I wouldn't buy one on principle.

The PTI, which I linked to above, has been trying to work against SawStop for years. Legally, there is little they can do. https://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp

• At one time SawStop approached table saw manufacturers offering to license its patent portfolio technology, demanding an 8% royalty on the retail value of all table saws with the technology in addition to other terms that were onerous and not related to table saw safety.
• A table saw manufacturer that is not a member of PTI tried to license SawStop’s patent portfolio technology, but negotiations failed when the manufacturer alleged that SawStop demanded unreasonable royalties in excess of what was originally being sought. An additional manufacturer of table saws that also is not a member of PTI reported that the company closed a manufacturing facility in Canada because of SawStop and that efforts to negotiate with SawStop were unsuccessful, noting "They don't want to share...they don't want to share with anybody."

I sit corrected.

Pete

 

[TRITON]

" "They don't want to share...they don't want to share with anybody." "

Share ? by that did they mean they wanted that for free.

Personally I dont see why sawstop needs to offer their safety technology for free, and because they wont, thats somehow bad.

 

[TRITON]

" theory that because the saw didn't have his AIM technology in it, then it was inherently dangerous."

Which is obviously is. Any feature that makes something safe is a good feature.

Often on threads concerning saws, theres much talk about push sticks and riving knives.
General consensus is a saw not running a riving knife is inherently dangerous. Is that a theory, or a practical fact
So if we are willing to accept that the lack of a riving knife is a danger to the user, prudence would strongly suggest that one should always be fitted.
The same rational should be levied towards Sawstop technology.

IMHO

Either way, it removes a danger that whichever way you swing it is inherent with table saws, or any saw or machine for that matter, which makes it in my opinion, well worth its outlay.

 

[Mike Fletcher]

JSW is not a fan of push shoes and prefers a push stick. Certainly his choice. However, a push shoe will create downward pressure on the workpiece all the way along and past the blade. A push stick cannot do this.

 

[JSW]

A push stick cannot do this.

Correct. That's why you use two.

 

[deema]

Are we not missing the most fundamental questions?

Are the saws any good?
Do they work straight out of the box?
Do they need tinkering to set them up?
How well are they made?
What's the dust extraction like?
How easy is it to exchange the blade?

 

[Sideways]

Anyway, here's a lowdown, maybe dispel some myths.
I wonder though that those complaining would have also complained when the seatbelt was first introduced,
Or support a riving knife or other safety features, but are against this safety feature. To my mind on this i cannot fathom their reasons.

That video's well worth a watch. It summarises the history in what I think is an unbiassed way and updates it with some interesting facts. Thanks.

 

[deema]

I think it’s interesting and disappointing that SawStop haven’t responded to any of the comments made about their product, neither the good or less favourable ones.

 

[Ttrees]

"Your safety is our top priority."
Doesn't seem like it to me, from someone who want's a fence extrusion to comply with EU rules.

Just visited the website there, and they sell all sorts of things, like router inserts and whatnot,
but no fence parts...
not even for someone who wants to have a second standard fence.

I'd guess they like the long fence, perhaps for one reason being they get more activation's that way.
In essence, they're willing to miss out on sales in an commercial setting.
Perhaps they don't wish for folks to know what can go wrong?.

It doesn't make sense at all, kinda like the Veritas April 1st jokes, but without the feedback.
Not something which would make one confident if they happened to have issues,
like the brake going off twice for no reason, which I've seen recently.

Shucks, well I guess I ain't gonna be getting an answer after mentioning that.



Keep safe folks, the EU way if you're partial to reading the stats on injuries regarding tablesaws.

All the best

 

[Ed Weber]

" theory that because the saw didn't have his AIM technology in it, then it was inherently dangerous."

Which is obviously is. Any feature that makes something safe is a good feature.

Often on threads concerning saws, theres much talk about push sticks and riving knives.
General consensus is a saw not running a riving knife is inherently dangerous. Is that a theory, or a practical fact
So if we are willing to accept that the lack of a riving knife is a danger to the user, prudence would strongly suggest that one should always be fitted.
The same rational should be levied towards Sawstop technology.

IMHO

Either way, it removes a danger that whichever way you swing it is inherent with table saws, or any saw or machine for that matter, which makes it in my opinion, well worth its outlay.

I couldn't disagree more.
just because there is a new or improved system available, are you then obligated to get it, of course not. Are all saws without AIM automatically "unsafe" now?
I don't have a riving knife on my saw but I have a splitter and guard, no less safe just a different approach.
SS does not make saws safer, as they're only triggered AFTER you've had the accident. All it does is lessen the damage to you.
Put simply, if you don't touch the blade, you have nothing to worry about.

Yes there are accidents and yes it's good insurance to have IF YOU WANT IT but without it, the saw is still capable of operating safely, depending on the operator.
My saw is not dangerous, it's the operator that has the potential to make it dangerous.

I feel bad that everyone in the UK using "unsafe saws" until SawStop comes down from the mountain and bestows AIM enabled saw to you?

Tools are not dangerous, people are

 

[Inspector]

Are we not missing the most fundamental questions?

Are the saws any good?
Do they work straight out of the box?
Do they need tinkering to set them up?
How well are they made?
What's the dust extraction like?
How easy is it to exchange the blade?

The saws are the equal or better than all comparable saws in their category. Manual in very comprehensive and well illustrated. My observations and opinion.

After putting on any fence rails and tables on the bigger saws or removing the packaging on the smaller saws, yes they work straight out of the box. No adjustments needed for the safety mechanisms.

No tinkering, no set up any more than any other new saw.

They are well made and the fit and finish are as good or better than any of the competing saws.

Dust extraction below the table on the ICS (Industrial Cabinet Saw) has a shrouded blade cover that hooks directly to a 4"/100mm port. Above table blade cover port is small like most saws in this arena, better hooked to a shop vac with a HVLP collector below. Like most saws inadequate and needs improvement. My opinion.

Blade change on the ICS is not very different to any cabinet saw.
*Switch off the saw.
*Pull the plug if not hardwired.
*Turn the lockout switch on the saw to off. Padlock it if you like.
*Remove the throat plate.
*Flick the magnetically held door on the side of the dust shroud open for access to the blade nut.
*Flick the riving knife/splitter leaver a quarter turn to open the clamp and remove the riving knife or slitter and guard. Not absolutely necessary but makes for a little more access.
*Use the two provided wrenches to remove the nut and washer.
*Slide off the blade and install the next.
Replace the washer and nut and tighten.
*Check the blade to brake gap, approx 2mm, and adjust the brake with an Allen wrench if required.
*Slip the riving knife/splitter over the dowel pins and flick the leaver to clamp on.
*Close the magnetic dust shroud door.
*Reinstall the throat plate.
*Plug it in.
*Turn the lockout switch on.
*Turn the saw switch on and after it goes through the self check and you have a green light you turn the saw on / off with the paddle.

Pete

 

[Inspector]

Hmm. For some reason the edit button doesn't show in my Post #59 above.
The blue font is to show the only real difference between this or other brands of saws.