John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
As an aside, the automatic forum bowdlerising seems somewhat irrelevant when so many of the jokes are cut and paste images, and as such can have all sorts of naughty words.
SawStop, stops on contact with skin is coming to Europe soon!
- Thread starter SawStop
- Start date
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Ed Weber
Established Member
Don't use YouTube to bolster our position, it doesn't help you.
Yes it can happen but if you actually take care and know what you're doing, wood remains flat on the table, it does not take flight.
Not all of us Americans are total idiots
Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
Ed Weber the reason the Europeans don't use the long fence is when ripping solid wood it moves when the stress is relieved when cut. Not all wood does but some will. When the wood does release the tension it pushes against the fence or clamps onto the blade, either way potentially dangerous. The riving knife/splitter help with the clamping and the half fence allows the wood to move away from the cut when passing the blade without binding reducing the chances of a kickback. The long fence is fine when cutting sheet goods and can easily have a short fence clamped to it for ripping solid wood. That's what I do with mine.
The Europeans have been very diligent about applying safe practices for a very long time and it is ingrained into their working culture. North Americans are far more resistant to being told what to do and fight tooth and nail against any regulations that may infringe on their right to choose, even when it is to their benefit. Doesn't help when businesses don't want to spend the money on safety and regard employees as consumable.
Pete
The Europeans have been very diligent about applying safe practices for a very long time and it is ingrained into their working culture. North Americans are far more resistant to being told what to do and fight tooth and nail against any regulations that may infringe on their right to choose, even when it is to their benefit. Doesn't help when businesses don't want to spend the money on safety and regard employees as consumable.
Pete
Against_The_Grain
Established Member
I've been using bench saws in all sorts of different configurations for many decades, there is no definitive right or wrong answer when it comes to short fence versus long fence, simply different scenarios where one may be preferential to the other.
If you're ripping unplaned boards as they are from the sawmill, it's good practice to use a short fence because of the deviations they might have along their length and any wind or bowing that may be present which could cause binding if you were to use a long fence. However, if you're working with pre-prepared stock that is planed flat, straight, and square you will usually have very little issue feeding with a long fence unless the timber is very volatile such as Iroko which moves greatly when ripped. When it comes to ripping shorter, smaller pieces the long fence is much easier to use as you can reference the work against it during the whole cut and afterward, rather than losing control of it at the end of the cut which can be dangerous, especially if a riving knife is not fitted as the piece can turn and catch the end of the blade and get launched at the operator.
If you're ripping unplaned boards as they are from the sawmill, it's good practice to use a short fence because of the deviations they might have along their length and any wind or bowing that may be present which could cause binding if you were to use a long fence. However, if you're working with pre-prepared stock that is planed flat, straight, and square you will usually have very little issue feeding with a long fence unless the timber is very volatile such as Iroko which moves greatly when ripped. When it comes to ripping shorter, smaller pieces the long fence is much easier to use as you can reference the work against it during the whole cut and afterward, rather than losing control of it at the end of the cut which can be dangerous, especially if a riving knife is not fitted as the piece can turn and catch the end of the blade and get launched at the operator.
AJB Temple
Finely figured
I'm with Ian on this and I disagree that wood does not take flight. My ts has proper blade guard, extraction, riving knife, EU style fence, sharp blades and I use push sticks and wedges for long rip cuts. I'm careful and I don't get behind the line of fire or let anyone stand in a dangerous place. I've only ever had one incident and that was enough: cutting a long and thick plank of oak, the blade picked up a knot, which detached along with a split piece of oak, and this was fired several metres across the room and hit the wall very fast with a loud bang. It only needs to happen once.
Ed Weber
Established Member
Why is it that you automatically think I don't understand and need to be taught a basic lesson of how saws operate?
I've been at this for several decades and while I'm not oblivious to the "potential" dangers. I'm also careful and skilled enough to not worry about wood binding or kick-back.
A lot has to do with how you were taught. If you've been taught using X, that's what you're comfortable using. Learning Y seems odd, even if it may have benefits. If you're not comfortable using a tool, you shouldn't be using it.
Not all North Americans are as resistant to being safe, as you seem to think .
I'll be the first in line to tell you Americans can be arrogant for no good reason but you're arguing against a cutting method that, if done properly, poses no real danger. (at least to me)
I think SawStop may be an added level of insurance against injury but it; A. does nothing to improve the workers knowledge or skill (method of work) B. damages the blade, C. requires the brake cartridge to be replaced at your cost, once triggered for any reason.
On a personal note, I can't stand the way the the original owner operated the company as a monopoly.
While I'll do my best to work safely, the reasons I listed are why I'll never own a SawStop.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I once halved a 250mm x 75mm piece of some kind of African mahogany (I don't know what it was, it was found in the sea - my bench top is two other pieces) - One side bowed and wound to the point it was unusable in any longer length, the other I could have used as a straight edge.
Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
My apologies for misunderstanding your position on safety and operational practices.
I have a SawStop and have had it for about 17 years. I understand your stance against them. One correction to your reason C. If you activate the brake and send it to SawStop. They will analyze the chip in it and if it was a flesh contact they will send you a new brake for free.
I'm 70 now and was introduced to woodworking by my father, a Danish trained furniture maker when I was a teenager. I watched him do things with a table saw that I won't even begin to try but he was very comfortable doing so. I try to work safely and always try to improve the way I work when I can.
All the best
Pete
Ed Weber
Established Member
I don't think SS will send you anything free here in the states, hopefully someone who owns one could clarify that point.
Ed Weber
Established Member
How do I add an image from my PC, Thanks
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Click on the "insert image" icon on the tool bar. A rectangle with a mountain icon in it. It's a bit fiddly to make it work but you'll get there in the end!
Ed Weber
Established Member
I'm only getting the option to link from a website, I'll work on it later
Well once it hits the uk there will be those who will purchase a s s t/s and those who won’t . It’s up to the individual to decide if they will benefit from it or rely on their training and experience. As a 1st year gas engineer back in the early 80,s I asked a regional manager why nobody had developed an alarm to warn of carbon monoxide- like when they go down into old drains sewers . He looked at me and said if customer’s were told how dangerous carbon monoxide was , that it has no smell and that it has the potential to kill in hours or even minutes depending on the level they would all stop using gas as a fuel and that none of us would have a job .so to me s s is an additional safety device just like a c/o alarm or a live cable detector, or a car air bag etc etc that will reduce the chance of serious injury but not won’t prevent the incident from happening —blocked flue - drilling into a live cable or being hit by a red light jumper or god forbid losing a finger or two. They are simply additional measures to protect us ..
Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
On SawStop's Warranty Information page it spells out the procedure under If You Have An Accident.
https://www.sawstop.com/support/war...we can,free replacement cartridge in exchange.
Excerpted from that paragraph.
"If you return the activated cartridge to SawStop, we can retrieve that data to learn how the electronics and software performed. Once we verify the activation was due to contact with skin, we will be happy to send you a free replacement cartridge in exchange."
As I said, I have a SawStop table saw. The one they now call the Industrial Cabinet Saw. It was the only one they made when I bought it.
Pete
Ed Weber
Established Member
I'm not sure everyone is aware of that.
It still makes no sense at all to me. They're giving you a cartridge because of your own incompetence. Hey look, I almost cut my finger off, it's okay though, they'll send me a new part?
You should have to pay for a cartridge and a new pair of underpants. you should probably be on double secret probation for a period of time and definitely stay away from me.
I guess this is how they claim to know how many are triggered by skin contact, not just relying on along with sales numbers.
This is a link to a U.S. site but it gives a basic outline of how Sawstop operates, in the eyes of the rets of the industry, here anyway.
https://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp
It still makes no sense at all to me. They're giving you a cartridge because of your own incompetence. Hey look, I almost cut my finger off, it's okay though, they'll send me a new part?
You should have to pay for a cartridge and a new pair of underpants. you should probably be on double secret probation for a period of time and definitely stay away from me.
I guess this is how they claim to know how many are triggered by skin contact, not just relying on along with sales numbers.
This is a link to a U.S. site but it gives a basic outline of how Sawstop operates, in the eyes of the rets of the industry, here anyway.
https://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp
I'd love to sign up but there appears no way to do so on your site. just auto-scrolls down to a bit at the bottom of the page saying 'sign up now' but no link or box to put the email in.
Very interested ion the compact. Been trying to justify the festool sawstop saw, but at £2100 its well overpriced.
Far as im aware the compact in the US is $899. So will the EU model be of similar pricing ?
Mike Fletcher
Established Member
We see lots of You Tube videos showing someone using a table saw without the riving knife or crown (blade) guard in place. This is stupid. They also promote the Micro jig push block that is unusable with the riving knife and crown guard in place. Another stupid move. I ALWAYS use a feather board and push shoe when cutting anything. For thinner stock I use a thin strip sled. I made a push shoe made from an old hand saw handle, which puts your hand even farther away from the blade and allows downward pressure all the way past the blade. In my mind, never remove the riving knife or crown guard. Following these rules, there is no need for the Saw Stop option. Fifty years of table saw use and I still have ten fingers.
Ever so slightly off-topic, but I'm not a fan of pushsticks, shoes, or any other type of pushing instrument that wraps your fingers around, and inside it. If something goes wrong and the stick, shoe etc gets twisted, you won't be able to release it, think of a drill that snags on something, almost impossible to release the trigger, due to the twisting angle applied to the wrist and fingers.
Just give me 2 old fashion push sticks any day, sat in the cup of the hand, with the fingers as a guide.
Just give me 2 old fashion push sticks any day, sat in the cup of the hand, with the fingers as a guide.
Mrs C
Established Member
The value of the data they are able to collect from your near miss outweighs their cost of a canister. Also, it’s a promotional thing, the cost of a replacement canister is likely to put a lot of people off, this is just their way of assuring their product.
I am not sure what the debate is about. The sawstop is just another option for an individual to mitigate their risk, as are push sticks and training.
Ed Weber
Established Member
The debate, as you frame it, is simply that not everyone see's the SawStop as it's advertised to be. Sure, it might be an extra level of insurance to be had and anyone who wants one can freely purchase one but keep this in mind.
If SS didn't act as a monopoly for the last 20 years and actually allowed others to peruse alternative safety features without suing them (just ask Bosch), how much safer would we all be? How much would this area of technology have advanced?
Even if the hotdog sensing technology didn't advance, maybe we would be further along with non destructive braking mechanisms or blade retraction. (look at Altendorf)
So the savior of tablesaw safety has done nothing but stunt advances in safety for their own profits over the past two decades.
You can't make this stuff up.
