Saw stop

[Trevanion]

Whilst I like the idea of a saw stop I think it would be better if it was an optional extra/retrofit for other machines and not just their own machine. I'd reckon they'd shift a lot more units if it was an extra you could get on say, Felder or Panhans machines.

The only real use for their machine I could see for one would be placed in an educational environment such as your colleges and schools (Although I don't think many schools even have table saws anymore).

 

[Raymond UK]

I have just watched a few Youtube videos on the Sawtop system. It looks impressive but it seems to do the same with wet (conductive) timber. Could be an expensive practise.

I think Jacob hit the nail on the head. If you're not competent enough to use a table saw without chopping off your fingers, don't use one.

What's next, router table stop or circulate saw stop? :roll:

 

[Shrubby]

It,s a solution for Americans and the hobby fraternity that look in that direction. Someone mentioned a retrofit for panel saws in European education - I read of one being developed by IFA Stuttgart and a consortium of large manufacturers - it attached to the Suva guard and used near infra red sensors - well away from the saw stop patents
Matt

 

[Ttrees]

If you're not a long term experienced or trained person using the tablesaw,
you should know absolutely everything about the sawstop.
That is a red flag in my book, for anyone who has not being trained, you don't have enough knowledge for safe use!
You could easily watch over 3 hours of the better safety videos online, and that's the good videos, not the likes of the really dangerous ones whom I won't mention,
You can spend twice that much time reading threads on this forum, which is a requirement for anyone who cares.
Those who don't read them have no excuse not to read'em.
These things take no prisoners, look at everything you can find, otherwise you are ignorant.
Accidents can happen, just look at Steve's post and read the other horror stories from really experienced users.
I don't want to make light of this as its not only the blade that can amputate you.
Keep watching and reading everything you can, you can't have too much information.
I saw a real horror show just last week, some know whom I'm on about
Its a real good example of what is about to happen if you fight with a machine.
I won't give the link though, as it was obviously intended to stir up folks for ratings.
Real bad news

 

[Inspector]

Whilst I like the idea of a saw stop I think it would be better if it was an optional extra/retrofit for other machines and not just their own machine. I'd reckon they'd shift a lot more units if it was an extra you could get on say, Felder or Panhans machines.

The only real use for their machine I could see for one would be placed in an educational environment such as your colleges and schools (Although I don't think many schools even have table saws anymore).

The mechanism can’t be made as a retrofit because when the brake is triggered the inertia of the blade stopping also drops the trunnion and motor to take the blade below the table. The action is much like running into a clothes line that catches you across the throat. Your feet come out from underneath you and you’re thrown on your back.

Our woodworking club meets in a local high school and they have replaced 4 or 5 table saws with SawStops.

 

[Inspector]

....It looks impressive but it seems to do the same with wet (conductive) timber. Could be an expensive practise......

If you reread my first post earlier today you’ll see I explained that if you have something you think might trigger the brake you touch it to the blade and it will warn you if it could trigger. Wet wood has to be soaking wet to do that. I seriously doubt anyone here makes their projects from that kind of material. Now if they do and don’t bother checking and use the bypass then they deserve to buy a new brake and blade. They can put the old one on the wall as a reminder not to do it again. (homer)

 

[Eric The Viking]

@Inspector:

One thing that struck me when the brand was launched was the build quality of the sawbench itself. It certainly looked to be superb.

Is that true, or am I just optimistic?

I'm in LA in November, so will seek one out (if I have a spare moment), to see for myself.

 

[Ttrees]

Rob Cosman gives about the most in depth video that I've come across here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSvoV_DWjAE
I've seen him do some scary things before on the tablesaw, he's not too worried about safety making those dowels! :shock:

 

[Droogs]

There is a long history involved with Sawstop and its inventor v the rest of the US table saw industy, which went to litigation and was very accrimonious and is the reason they (Sawstop) actually manufacture machines. I have not used but have seen one in the flesh, a friend in the US has it and the build quality is very high. As good as a Delta/Laguna machine. Bosch developed a similar system for european saws but has had to delay introduction because of legal issues with Sawstop's inventor (not sure of current situation).

All in all, a very good original idea which helps improve tool safety but does/should not replace training and responsable usage of very dangerous equipment. unfortunately marred by some nasty quarrels about money.

edited for typos

 

[Steve Maskery]

I'd have one. But I'd have it for the build quality, not the autostop facility. I've not seen one in the flesh, but the left-tilt blade, the fence and SUVA guard all look excellent to me. The only thing missing is a short fence and that is easy enough to make. Mine doubles as a storage box for the spanners and spare arbor, etc.
BTW, I have both poker-style and US boot-style push sticks and I use them both, sometimes at the same time. They each have advantages over the other.
I also have a push stick for my router table. It's boot-style, with a V-groove its bottom edge. It means I can push along, down and in towards the fence all at the same time.

 

[custard]

I'd have one. But I'd have it for the build quality, not the autostop facility.

+1

I just watched a video review and putting the safety aspect on one side, it's an impressively well built machine. There are loads of little (and not so little) details that would make this a serious contender even if you ignore the autostop.

-massive cast iron table (is there anything bigger?) with quality machining for flatness
-excellent fence
-well thought out insert plate
-tool-less removal of the riving knife. I'd probably use my dado stack more often if I had this
-the blade is fully shrouded below the table. Felder has something similar and it's astonishing how much better the dust extraction is compared to other saws I've used, the table stays sawdust free and there's no need to worry about chips trapped against the fence or cross cut stops throwing your settings out
-left tilting blade
-ribbed drive belts. Cheap Chinese machines use old design and poor quality belts, but even the better machines often still use old design yet decent quality belts. Good belts mean you get no slippage, but you also don't lose a big chunk of horsepower through friction.
-huge cast iron trunnion mounts, that's real evidence of quality. Cheap saws have flimsy and badly aligned trunnions, so even if they cut straight with the blade vertical, they go out of alignment for deep bevel cuts
-metal rather than plastic adjusting wheels, designed to stand up to the hurly burly of real workshop conditions.

 

[OscarG]

-tool-less removal of the riving knife. I'd probably use my dado stack more often if I had this

Sorry to take thread off-topic, I thought dado stacks were illegal here? Do you have an American table saw?

 

[Steve Maskery]

Dado stacks are not illegal. This comes up regularly.

What is illegal is using an unguarded blade in a commercial environment, or using a blade which fails to stop within 10 seconds.

On many saws, the guard is mounted on the riving knife, and to use a dado stack one has to remove the RK, thereby removing the guard as well.

Also a full dado stack is many times the weight of a normal blade, so the inertia extends the stopping time. On my saw, a full stacks still stops in just over 6 seconds.

But it is perfectly possible to guard in other ways. I have, and use, three guards, none of which rely on the RK for support. Each one is designed for different purposes. Lurker's link to my dado fence has the guard built-in.

When I was filming my DVD series, I did a whole section on how to use dado stacks legally and safely, with input from my local HSE office. They were really helpful, so I do know what I am talking about.

The only problem is finding a saw that will take them. Most euro machines come with a short, 30mm arbor. I have an Xcalibur, which can also take a longer, 5/8" arbor, so I can, and do (occasionally) use a dado stack. For many operations it is quicker to rout, because of the setup time, but sometimes it is worth it for the superb quality of cut.

Using a dado stack is not illegal. Even using one at home without a guard is not illegal (home workshops are not covered by H&S legislation), it's just a very silly and unnecessary thing to do.

 

[Inspector]

Eric mine is the one they sell as the Industrial machine now. When I bought it, it was the only one they sold. It is a very well made machine, easily as good or better than the older US made Unisaws, Powermatics, and Canadian made Generals. I think the same when compared to the other Asian imports in the same class but since moving to the Prairies I don't live in a tool rich environment anymore so can't compare now. By the way the optional hydraulic mobility base is just plain brilliant and I wish they, or someone else would make different sizes for other kinds of machines. At the time and I think for most machines sold here all you got was a basic NVR switch without a big stop button to power on/off the saw. These come with a separate lockout switch and the paddle off button on the main switch. Something tells me your saws would come that way but it wasn't common here. It also had the best manual on any saw I had ever seen. Have a look at them on the link I posted before. I like to step up to the saw and put it to work.

About that Rob Cosman video. You'll see he has a chip limiting blade mounted in the saw. They are not recommended in SawStop machines. The teeth need to bite into the aluminium block to stop and the chip limiters slow that process down so the blade rotates further before stopping. That boils down to it taking more flesh. How much I don't know and don't want to find out. I have a chip limiting dado set that I am going to replace or have a saw sharpener grind them off. I'm waiting to find out how much the grinding will cost and decide if it is more cost effective to get another set.

 

[Noel]

Dado stacks are not illegal. This comes up regularly.

What is illegal is using an unguarded blade in a commercial environment, or using a blade which fails to stop within 10 seconds.

On many saws, the guard is mounted on the riving knife, and to use a dado stack one has to remove the RK, thereby removing the guard as well.

Also a full dado stack is many times the weight of a normal blade, so the inertia extends the stopping time. On my saw, a full stacks still stops in just over 6 seconds.

But it is perfectly possible to guard in other ways. I have, and use, three guards, none of which rely on the RK for support. Each one is designed for different purposes. Lurker's link to my dado fence has the guard built-in.

When I was filming my DVD series, I did a whole section on how to use dado stacks legally and safely, with input from my local HSE office. They were really helpful, so I do know what I am talking about.

The only problem is finding a saw that will take them. Most euro machines come with a short, 30mm arbor. I have an Xcalibur, which can also take a longer, 5/8" arbor, so I can, and do (occasionally) use a dado stack. For many operations it is quicker to rout, because of the setup time, but sometimes it is worth it for the superb quality of cut.

Using a dado stack is not illegal. Even using one at home without a guard is not illegal (home workshops are not covered by H&S legislation), it's just a very silly and unnecessary thing to do.

Similar, 5 odd secs for a 250 mm single blade and a sec more or so for an 8" dado with 3 x 4 wing chippers. Not really a big issue and well within regulations I think.

 

[custard]

-tool-less removal of the riving knife. I'd probably use my dado stack more often if I had this

Sorry to take thread off-topic, I thought dado stacks were illegal here? Do you have an American table saw?

No, I use a Felder.

Most Felder and Hammer machines are dado stack compatible, and the company sell a range of dado and grooving blades to suit.

Personally I prefer to use either a router or a spindle moulder, but occasionally a dado stack makes sense so I keep one on hand. If I had the tool-less riving knife that Sawstop offers I'd probably find a few extra applications for a dado stack.

 

[Tasky]

Every time you power up the saw for a work session the braking system goes through a self diagnostic and if everything is functioning properly it will let you work. If there is something wrong the status lights will keep flashing a pattern that informs you as to what the problem is and the saw won't run, even in bypass mode, until the issue is resolved.
A lot of cars do the same thing... and a friend of mine makes a living from fixing them when the OBD says everything is fine, despite it blatantly not being so. I even lend him a hand in exchange for beer tokens, sometimes.

I will use the SawStop not because I depend on the brake to protect myself from my own ignorance or arrogance but because it is extra insurance.

Which is fine for the likes of yourself and much respect to you for it. I'm just worried that many people without your sensibilities would, as they do in many ther areas of their life, rely on it instead of all the other existing safety guards and measures... and I'm rather keen on not encouraging such a mentality.

But that would never happen because like any well trained woodworker you follow the rules of safety and stand out of the line of fire. :wink:

It'd never happen because I've used a table saw, thought it was a bloody scary piece of kit and have absolutely no desire to own one myself!!! :shock:
I'll stick to hand saws and standing outside the building as my safety measure!! :lol:

 

[ScaredyCat]

This thread reminds me of the endless ABS vs NON-ABS on motorcycles arguments. Personally, I think if there's an extra safety feature then why not have it? As long as it doesn't interfere with you working and being safe then what's the issue? The first thing that's always struck me is how solid the saw stop tables seem to be. The fact that they include this safety feature is a bonus. I don't think anyone that owns one particularly wants to trigger it (unless it's for demonstration purposes) and, if I had one, I'd hope that I never needed to replace the blade and brake. Any safety feature is still a safety feature even if you, personally, never have to use it.


.

 

[Inspector]

To use a dado set in a SawStop you have more to do than just removing the riving knife. You have to remove the 10" saw blade brake cartridge and replace it with the 8" dado brake cartridge. It is wider to accommodate the stack of blades. You also have to verify the cartridge to blade gap is correct and adjust it to suit the blade you have. When done you have to do the same in reverse.

Where the quick release clamp for the riving knife shines is switching back and forth between just having the riving knife on the saw and removing it to put the splitter/anti-kickback pawls/ blade guard assembly on and for the rarest occasions when you take both off to raise the blade up through the middle of a board or sheet of plywood to cut a hole out.

 

[Inspector]

Scaredycat. Not just motorcycle ABS's. Motorcycle and bicycle helmets, car seat belts, airbags, anti-skid, tire pressure warning indicators, ABS brakes, gun laws. Building permits, inspections property usage, height, size and building roof/cladding rules. Any facet of life where someone tell others what they can and can't do. (hammer) So saw blade braking is just a little puppy in a long history of us being protected from ourselves. :roll: