Sash window - a bit lost

[Jacob]

They were my sprigs and he stole them from me...I kept one though and it's in my marking gauge it's tiny and under 1mm thick. If they were later they would have been made from slit stock and not bar.

I collected a large number of nails for his thesis and he had me dragging a magnet on a rope around the reclamation yards of Somerset during my spare time.

The oak sills were original too and the earliest windows had boxwood pulleys with rectangular lead weights. Lovely windows. There was also a fixed window with broad glass in it, didn't dare touch it though.

I've had (once or twice!) boxwood pulleys in oak pulley blocks, brass spindle, beautifully made and no bigger than cast iron equivalents. Very neatly fitted into pulley stiles - no screws or nails just sitting with a bevelled edge at the bottom fitting in to a matching undercut housing. Might have a photo I'll see if I can find one.
I'm really pissed off about the nails I've chucked over the years, especially the 5 gallons I collected in my chapel conversion!
I've cast quite a few weights in lead - had to where the cases or sash pockets were too small for cast iron. Square section. Just a simple mould pressed into builders soft sand, which holds its shape. Lead is handy as you can simply saw bits off to trim the weight exactly. Slightly heavier for top sash, lighter for bottom, so when shut they stay firmly shut with less rattling, but will stay open with friction.

 

[Adam W.]

We can't keep everything we find, otherwise we'd be drowning in stuff.

I got rid of a load of crown and cylinder glass when we moved. I can't understand why as I need it now.

 

[Jacob]

We can't keep everything we find, otherwise we'd be drowning in stuff.

I got rid of a load of crown and cylinder glass when we moved. I can't understand why as I need it now.

True. Am drowning in stuff.
Part of the prob is looking through the woodpile but finding everything there is just too good to use for the job in hand. One or two bits passed down from an old retired joiner who was also saving them for the right job. Could be incredibly old and passed down a long way - bits of Noah's ark perhaps?

 

[Adam W.]

Or the ark of covenant. Is there any carving on the back side?

 

[Jacob]

Or the ark of covenant. Is there any carving on the back side?

No but there's a bit of cuneiform script which I'm told translates as "save"

 

[Just4Fun]

Obvious really - if the glass AND the frame are in good nick then they don't need separating.

Normally not but I want to re-purpose some old windows and this involves changing their size.

 

[Adam W.]

Normally not but I want to re-purpose some old windows and this involves changing their size.

You'll have to cut the putty off with something sharp and remove the sprigs if any. Then the glass might or might not come out. If not, cut around the pane with a sharp knife like a Stanley or something and wiggle it out.

I'm not sure if you can soften the putty with a bit of linseed oil, if it's stuck fast.

 

[Jacob]

You'll have to cut the putty off with something sharp and remove the sprigs if any. Then the glass might or might not come out. If not, cut around the pane with a sharp knife like a Stanley or something and wiggle it out.

I'm not sure if you can soften the putty with a bit of linseed oil, if it's stuck fast.

I don't think I've ever managed to do it. There's always a last bit of putty set like concrete, or a spall in the glass which suddenly turns into a crack as you lift it out. On the other hand cutting the frame and tapping it away from the glass is pretty reliable.

 

[Phill05]

One little tip I was given was if you can lay the window down overnight with the putty side up run a little puddle of Paraffin into each glass section to soak it worked it's way under and up into the wood making it easy to chisel out the putty.

 

[mr rusty]

If you are handy enough to cut out the rot and remake the bottom of the window and make a decent job of it, you are handy enough to remake the whole window. The cill is actually the part with the most complexity to its shape. The rest is all planks with grooves in. You can buy all the beads, seals, parts from either mighton or reddiseals Sash Window Hardware | Casement Window Hardware | Mighton Products Reddiseals Sash Window Hardware you can also obtain timber sections from e.g. Sash Window Components | Chiltern Timber (never used them myself tho)

If you have a router it's easy enough to groove the timber for the parting bead, and the pulley stile can be rebated and grooved into the linings.

The weight pocket in England is traditionally in the pulley stile, but elsewhere is also found in the bottom of the inner lining (I prefer it there as it isn't on the bearing surface).

To make a bottom sash swing open internally for cleaning, you can use "scottish" simplex components You searched for simplex sash - Reddiseals Ltd

 

[Ollie78]

One of the most common causes of decay in timber windows is the use of epoxy, silicone and mastic.

Historically, the components were a dry fit with a few nails for fixing using timber with a zero sapwood content, bedded on lime mortar and finished with proper painting. High quality early vertical hung sash windows had an oak sill

This is certainly true to a degree, however some very old windows I have encountered have been bedded on an oil based mastic. I think there is a lot of regional differences for instance in Bath there are many sliding sashes without wooden cills at all they are straight to the bath stone cill.

While you could go for the complete old school methodology (good luck finding fine quality slow grown timber !) this is not entirely practical for fixing existing windows in situ.
You can buy a cill section in Maranti from Jewsons which just needs jointing in and some decent redwood or yellow pine for cheeks and pulley lining makes it pretty quick and easy. Probably less than half the price of building and installing a complete new window and much less colateral damage to the house.
As long as you do a housing joint for the pulley lining the window will be good for another 50 years.


I also think that the traditional craftsmen who made those lovely old windows might well have enjoyed hybrid polymer instead of putty and nice epoxy resin if they had some !

Ollie

 

[Adam W.]

Luckily they didn't have those things, otherwise the historic windows would be no longer.

Traditional window building methods and materials have shown their worth for hundreds of years, so why not fix them as they were built and make it last rather than a quick, cheap fix ?

The British vernacular architectural landscape is world beating and it's worth conserving.

 

[Jacob]

This is certainly true to a degree, however some very old windows I have encountered have been bedded on an oil based mastic. I think there is a lot of regional differences for instance in Bath there are many sliding sashes without wooden cills at all they are straight to the bath stone cill.

Interesting. I did some windows in Ireland which had half a cill - the front half which is most prone to rot was simply not there. It was cut off just behind the front edge of the bottom sash so that water running off would go straight to the sloping stone cill. It was bedded on some sort of red lead mastic rolled up with a heavy canvas roll at the front edge, with air gap behind. The stone cill had an uprise at the back which also formed a water bar

While you could go for the complete old school methodology (good luck finding fine quality slow grown timber !) this is not entirely practical for fixing existing windows in situ.

Good timber no prob - good paint is the problem. Fixing windows in situ is not viable, beyond normal routine maintenance

....


I also think that the traditional craftsmen who made those lovely old windows might well have enjoyed hybrid polymer instead of putty and nice epoxy resin if they had some !

Ollie

You must joking! Putty is the cheapest and easiest to use, pleasant to work with and can last 100s of years. Slow drying - you have to leave it a day or two before you paint it with linseed oil paint

PS the Irish windows were in a very large plantation house which had been occupied and wrecked by the French invasion 1798 (a.k.a."the 98"). The windows I was dealing with had been paid for by French govt as war reparations 1813 ish. There was a lot of that sort of thing going on, French/English prisoner exchanges etc. but by and large the Irish rebels and peasant fighters were brutally executed. The book is "The Year of the French"

 

[Ollie78]

Luckily they didn't have those things, otherwise the historic windows would be no longer.

Traditional window building methods and materials have shown their worth for hundreds of years, so why not fix them as they were built and make it last rather than a quick, cheap fix ?

The British vernacular architectural landscape is world beating and it's worth conserving.

I don`t disagree and I love it when people are willing to go the extra mile on this type of thing, but they were made in joinery shops and in order to fix them in the traditional way they ought to be completely removed, causing considerable damage to the inside of the room, especially with panelling or shutters in there as well.

Also in a lot of cases it is "too late" to fix them in the old fashioned way as they have been subjected to a hundred years of various paint and "repairs" by painters and glaziers.
Most people can`t afford a full new window or painstaking grade 1 listed style job, they just need the window to work properly again.

Interesting. I did some windows in Ireland which had half a cill - the front half which is most prone to rot was simply not there. It was cut off just behind the front edge of the bottom sash so that water running off would go straight to the sloping stone cill. It was bedded on some sort of red lead mastic rolled up with a heavy canvas roll at the front edge, with air gap behind. The stone cill had an uprise at the back which also formed a water bar Good timber no prob - good paint is the problem. Fixing windows in situ is not viable, beyond normal routine maintenanceYou must joking! Putty is the cheapest and easiest to use, pleasant to work with and can last 100s of years. Slow drying - you have to leave it a day or two before you paint it with linseed oil paint

PS the Irish windows were in a very large plantation house which had been occupied and wrecked by the French invasion 1798 (a.k.a."the 98"). The windows I was dealing with had been paid for by French govt as war reparations 1813 ish. There was a lot of that sort of thing going on, French/English prisoner exchanges etc. but by and large the Irish rebels and peasant fighters were brutally executed. The book is "The Year of the French"

Interesting about the Irish half cill idea, the ones in Bath are wierd, no stone upstand or weather bar in them, the lower sash sits on the stone cill and the staff bead is on the stone too, if I remember rightly it was morticed in at each inner cheek.

Putty is fine if you can leave it a week and the customer is going to use breathable paint, most won`t and the polymer can be painted or just left unpainted, I agree that its not as pleasent to use though.

Ollie

 

[Adam W.]

It doesn't always mean damage the inside of the room, but if that's a risk then they can easily be dismantled and repaired from the outside off a tower. That's how I mostly worked, as it kept the mess outside of the house, but I never worked off the street and always had space around me.

I managed to avoid people who were on a tight budget or weren't that concerned about conserving the historic elements and concentrated on II* and grade I, as that's where the money was.

I could then charge a premium hourly rate and supplied the materials at cost or in the case of historic glass, free of charge as I got it from the glazier for nothing but beer money, as he could never bring himself to throw it away and we were both interested in conserving it.

I guess I was lucky that the right work was readily available.

 

[Stevekane]

Cutting Glass,,I was told that with secondhand glass, that being the only stuff I would ever need to cut myself, it was best to let it warm up and not try when its freezeing cold, to give the cutting line a good clean then to give it a vigorous polish with a rag just before the cut, I think the idea was to warm it a bit but I liked it because it helps remove any little bits that might make the wheel skip. Im not a confident glass cutter though and Ive got a couple of old bulleyes to trim a bit off each end,,any tips other than asking the local glass merchant to do it?

 

[Jacob]

Cutting Glass,,I was told that with secondhand glass, that being the only stuff I would ever need to cut myself, it was best to let it warm up and not try when its freezeing cold, to give the cutting line a good clean then to give it a vigorous polish with a rag just before the cut, I think the idea was to warm it a bit but I liked it because it helps remove any little bits that might make the wheel skip. Im not a confident glass cutter though and Ive got a couple of old bulleyes to trim a bit off each end,,any tips other than asking the local glass merchant to do it?

Don't know about the warming up I've always done it in a warm workshop. But definitely yes to a good clean, along the intended cut line at least. I've cut plenty of crown glass but never close to the bulls eye. I guess it just gets more difficult the closer you get.

 

[Adam W.]

I would imagine it's tricky with thick glass and I'm not sure if they used glass shears or something like that to cut thick uneven sections, but the edged of the thick stuff and the really early hand beaten stuff I have seen all seem a little ragged.

There is something about cutting glass in water, but it's not something I've tried.

 

[Stevekane]

What an intresting video and the tacked on tecnical explanation of why it works, I wonder if say flooding the glass after scribeing the line would help,,get those old molycules jumping about?
I really ought to buy a decent cutter too,,any recommendations for a cheap one for occasional use?

 

[Adam W.]

I bought a nice Japanese one, it didn't cost so much and it cuts beautifully. The glazier had the same and kept his in a jar with the tip immersed in terps.

It's a bit like this one. I keep mine in WD40 as the smell of terps makes me feel sick.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/glass-cutter-toyo-japan